This is part 2 of our outstanding students series.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to the Legal Learning Podcast. I’m your host Jolene. And with the Legal Learning Center, I help pre law students and law students with their legal journey. Today, we will chat with Kelly who is a current college student. She, until recently, was enrolled in a three plus three program. She’s going to tell us all the pros and cons that she experienced from that program. After I’ll give you my top takeaways from this chat, but first, a quick word from our sponsor. Financially Free Aspiring Attorneys is a course with over $300,000 in money saving tips. If you want to go to law school, but you don’t want to pay for it, visit LegalLearningCenter.com/financially-free for more information on how you can avoid law loans.
Today, we are joined by Kelly who is a college student who until recently was enrolled in a three plus three program. Kelly, thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:
Okay. So what year in college are you?
Speaker 2:
So right now I am a junior, so my third year in college.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Okay. And when did you enroll in the three plus three program?
Speaker 2 (01:23):
I actually enrolled upon admission into my school. There was an option on the college application, incoming freshmen, whether or not I wanted to be considered to join this program. So I was like, I want to go to the law school. Oh, let me just check this. And yeah, that’s kind of how I approached it.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Yeah, that’s very early in the program. I mean, that’s like when you’re like 17, 18 years old.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Okay. Just for those who don’t know what a three plus three program is, what is it?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
So basically the three plus three program is a sort of like a combined accelerated degree program, which, uh, means that you would complete three years of undergrad and then three years of law school because law school is three years. So the fourth year when you would be a senior in undergrad would actually be your first year of law school or 1L as the law school people referred to it as, um, yeah, I guess in the sense it’s like an accelerated way to, um, complete both degrees instead of you going to undergrad for four years and then later on applying during your senior year for the next three years of law school.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
And so do you just take less electives as a college student?
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Yeah, so for my school, um, which I assume most other schools apply this kind of method, I had to complete basically all of my college requirements within the three years and not take elective courses. So courses outside of my major or did not fit under like humanities or science elective as a political science major. I couldn’t take like a music course if it didn’t fulfill a requirement because the allocated free electives to take whatever course I want would be held in reserve for my fourth year. As like the classes I would take as a 1L my actual like law school classes to complete that undergraduate degree. I hope that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Yeah. And did you have to, is there a certain major you have to have?
Speaker 2 (03:52):
No, you could be any major just like how, I feel like a lot of admissions, counselors and whatnot, advocate, like you can major in whatever you want. You could really major in whatever you want to fulfill this program.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Okay. Now, were there certain qualifications that you had to meet to actually be accepted?
Speaker 2 (04:19):
I believe that when I applied as a high school senior into the program, they said that they would like look at my GPA and my coursework. And I believe I had to submit like maybe a short essay expressing why I wanted to join the program, but nothing like extensive. But, once I was granted provisional admission into the program, there were other like, I had to sign a contract, which had other requirements for me as a college student at this school to also fulfill those requirements to finally get actually accepted in the joint law school.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Okay. And is it actually a law school that’s at your school?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Yes. So my school was linked like this three plus three. Wasn’t just for like any law school I wanted to, it was the law school that was under my undergraduate school name. So if I went to like pink university, I would be this three plus three program meant that I was trying to go to pink school of law, if that make sense.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Okay. And did they require that you take the LSAT?
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yes. So, they said that one of the requirements in the contract was that I would take the LSAT no later than December of my final year of undergraduate study, which meant like December of my junior year. So this year that just passed because at that point that’s when I would have to submit my binding application to that school.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Cool. Okay. And so are you actually required to fill out an entire application with the personal statement? All that kind of stuff too?
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Yes. You still have to go through all the things that, uh, you would normally, if you were a regular student applying to the school, however, if you scored at least a certain number and because you agreed to be in this program, you were basically automatically considered those other things they said would be contributing to your like aid package.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Gotcha. Okay. So just a little extra, but it’s still required though. Yeah. Okay. Now, is it, I don’t know if you know this, is the LSAT score required from you lower or the same than what’s required from the outside populace.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Yeah. So I looked into that and, um, it was roughly the median, but also what they said was that each year that score might, may or not be different because it was, I had to earn at least the median LSAT score of the incoming year that it came to college. So, um, I had to reach the LSAT score of the median of that school in 2018, even though I’d be applying at the end of 2020.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Okay. Now, so it sounds like it’s possible if you didn’t get a proper LSAT score or maybe if your grades just really went down at some point that the law school could still reject you and basically kick you out of the program. Is that right?
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Yeah. So you needed a to maintain a certain GPA and then that LSAT score median. Um, and if you didn’t, they said that you were able to retake, like they would like put your application on some sort of hold and retake. And if you were close, close enough to the score needed that, because you were put under this like binding process and whatnot they would still like consider you for admission. So they were kind of lenient in that way.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Okay. Now was your undergraduate university giving you any extra support to make sure you are on track and to answer any questions you might have?
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Yeah, so, because we were, I was a part of this program and it’s not many, um, my school is very, uh, STEM heavy, I would say. So the, in terms of like liberal arts and like the humanities we are like smaller colleges within the university. So it was even a smaller amount who decided to go for this degree program. So they often had like meetings, schedule meetings with the pre-law advisor. Um, they would host events, talking to alumni from the undergrad university and the connected school of law, um, to come talk to us and answer any questions, um, provided a lot of law fairs and whatnot, and a lot of checking just to make sure that we were okay with the course load. We were okay with studying for the LSAT. And, you know, we were still interested in this program.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Do you know how much money the school was going to save you by skipping that final year?
Speaker 2 (09:31):
So when it comes down to like the actual numbers they would never like say, but they would always like, you know, advocate. Well, you’re saving a whole year of school. You’re saving a whole year of undergrad schooling. Which is nice when you hear it, but at the same time, it’s like, at least when I got closer into like really understanding what was required of me and what I was actually signing up for I would be paying the law school tuition as my fourth year undergrad. So my fourth year would be my first year of law school, my 1L year. And that meant that I was technically outside of the undergrad scope and now considered a graduate student, which meant I was paying the law school fees, which are significantly more expensive than the undergrad fees. So yeah, you’re saving money in a way, but like, you’re still, when you crunch the numbers, I don’t know how much I really would’ve saved and if it would have been so substantial.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Okay. So you’re paying more sooner, even if you’re skipping a year. I know law school, financial aid is different than undergrad financial aid, because undergrad you’re still considered under your parents where as a law school, you are considered, you know, a full fledged adult, your parents’ income have no bearing on how much financial aid you receive. So I imagine then you would kind of be pushed up to that next level when you apply for loans the next year. Is that your understanding?
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Yes. Yes. And I, I mean, again, I look back because I was so interested in this at 18 and I’m only 20 now, so it’s not like I’m that much older, but this is more experience with like loans for undergrad and the financial requirements that come with going to school? Once I realized that, Oh, when I sign up for this loan, when I enter law school, I can’t necessarily, it won’t be the same process as undergrad where I had my parents as like a co-signer or they were using like their aid, their financial contributions weigh more heavily than what I could ever do. So kind of, you know, put more weight onto me into realizing like what this decision really entails.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
I think a lot of people don’t realize that until they start taking out those student loans at the law school level, it’s a lot of money, so, yeah. And again, you’re saving money, but you’re bringing on that extra debt a little sooner, a little faster. So you just dropped out of the program, right?
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Yes. Literally, like maybe what could be considered like closer to the last minute I dropped the program in early November and I was supposed to start applying in December technically.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Okay. So what led you to pulling back on the program?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Well, ever since, if you were interviewing my pre-law advisor, she would tell you, like, ever since, I want to say like the middle of my first year, I’ve been like, kind of going back and forth with staying in the program. For multiple reasons. One, when I came into undergrad, I didn’t realize how, uh, networky and like regional the law field was, in terms of like the connections and like, I can’t just go to school in this city and then go across the country and just like practice law, like no biggie. I didn’t know how much weight where you went to school, had on like the beginning of your career. And I know that like a lot of admissions counselors and like people online will try to like, bring that less than that. Wait a little bit and say like, it’s doable.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Like it’s not the end of the world if like where you go to law school and where you practice for the first few years. Like you can still relocate and whatever, but I’m a very indecisive person and not having, and I, I wasn’t going to a law school that was ranked like incredibly high. So not having that, you know, that ability to have like name recognition, to like move like to a random state and be like, yes, I went to pink university or have like that network, that alumni network. And how important that was that kind of contributed to that. I really didn’t know if I wanted to stay in this city after law school and after undergrad and what my young professional career would look like, because again, I’m indecisive. So I really started to think about, well, if I went to a different school, would they, like that was higher ranked or that had more of an alumni network, maybe that could give me that flexibility and mobility that I’m looking for in the event that I decided to go on my indecisive track.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Also my law school that I was planning to go to was relatively small and that’s not a bad thing, but, and again, I’m only 20 and say that no one really goes into law school knowing what they want and if they do, they change, what was offered like the programs of interest that were offered at my law school weren’t necessarily things I was interested in off the bat, which could have changed. But I feel like if they had more specializations, maybe that would like peak my interest a little bit more and those were the big two, but I, I would, I was going back and forth for like two years and I would get to a point where I’m like, yes, you know, I’m very capable student. I’m a hard worker, whatever happens, I’ll make it work. And I’ll go to this school because I’m already in the program, I’ve come this far. So I will figure it out. Then another part of me is like, well, I scored this highly on the LSAT, which is much higher than what is required of me or any of like the percentiles. I could go to a different school. I could go to a higher ranked school that can give me that mobility, what are you doing? So it was just like a lot of back and forth between those two different sides.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Yeah. Law school is a big decision, no matter what. I find it a almost crazy decision to make when you’re 17, 18 years old. So yeah, that’s one of my concerns with the three plus three program. I think it’s great for someone who never went to undergrad and just wants to go back later and just zip through the whole thing, but when you’re 17 or 18, yeah. I find it a little, um, intense that level of commitment. So, I don’t blame you for saying, let me take a moment and think about this. So yeah. Yeah. It’s a lot of, uh, there’s a lot that goes into it, a lot of money and you’re right. There’s a lot of different factors that can change your trajectory. And especially something like finding out how well you score on the LSAT. I mean, yeah, you might get a lot of scholarship money to this school, but why just commit yourself. Why not check out the other schools and other options that school is still there, technically you can go the next year if you wanted to.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
I just wanted to add to that because my school does operate on a quarter system. So instead of semesters, we have 10 week quarters. And so I was taking and because of their requirements, like I had to have basically all my undergrad done in three years, I was taking the maximum amount of credits, 20 credits every 10 weeks. So I felt like I was also missing out on like my college experience. I still have fun, still hung out, but I remember like always turning down things. And because I got to study, I had the test and really it was the COVID when COVID hit, it really hit me hard that like, well, I’m getting, like the rest of my sophomore year has been taken away from me because I’m at home and everything’s closed down. We’re remote. When we come back to school, I don’t, I still don’t want to be that girl that’s like locked in her room that can’t hang out with your friends. So I was also thinking if I drop out of the program, I’m going to have my fourth full senior year to like actually live a little bit more than I was earlier too. So that, that like, decision-making that you were just talking about and how that’s so much weight. I didn’t realize that I would be having to take the maximum amount of credits each term. And I mean, I did it, I succeeded, but it definitely was a lot and I wish that I did have more time to just kind of like chill and be like an 18 year old in college.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
That is a lot. I was on the quarter system as well, and I know the minimum was 12 units. And so you can’t do that. You have to take like 16 or more every year?
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Yes, yes. Yeah. So, yeah, the minimum is 12 here too as well. And yet, if you, because if you took like 12 to 15, how everything’s paced and because there’s a part of our quarter where you’re not supposed to be taking classes for internship purposes, you would just fall behind you, wouldn’t, you wouldn’t, it’d be almost impossible for you to fulfill all your requirements outside of free electives to maintain the program. And I remember sitting with my pre-law advisor and she told me that, I want to say like maybe December before the next quarter started. So after like my second quarter at my school, and I was like, Whoa, I did not know that I did not know that this was happening, but okay. I still want to be in this program, so let’s do it. So, yeah, it was like, I fluctuated between 19 and 20 credits each term until about the summer quarter, because that’s when I really started to focus on the LSAT and I try studying full-time with the maximum course load and it just wasn’t working out. I was prioritizing school more than the LSAT. So summer quarter, I only took, I want to say like maybe 16 and dedicated, like a couple of days to just LSAT work, which helped.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Okay. So both summers after your freshman year and sophomore year you took summer school?
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Uh, yes, it’s basically required at our school, but only this only the second summer. So the sophomore, the summer that just passed that was in the summer that I took like less course load for studying, because usually I hear that students study during the summer because they have no classes, but we do have classes so that wasn’t really working out. So I try to take as minimum as I could while also staying on track.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Okay. Can you give me an idea of what your study schedule was like with the 16 units and the LSAT at the same time?
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Sure. I have my old planner from that time. So I can tell you specifically, it was hard. I’m not going to lie.
I had an online class on Tuesdays that I gave to Tuesdays. Um, okay. Let me start over Monday. I had two classes it was two to four and then four to six. So that chunk was designated. So whenever I had class those days were designated Monday, Wednesday, Tuesday, Thursday, Fridays I had off. So I would wake up in the morning, do my little exercise routine try to maintain like a regular morning routine or whatever routine you have. And I would study for the LSAT from nine to one, have a break, have lunch, then go to classroom two to six, do any readings or homework for classes until like eight or nine, then have a little break to myself, me time.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
And then, cause I go to sleep late 10 to 12 would be another round of LSAT prep. So that would mirror Mondays and Wednesdays, Tuesdays and Thursdays. I had two online classes, so I would do the online work in the morning instead from like 10 to 2 and get that done. And they were like lesser credit classes. So it wasn’t as taxing. And then from four to eight, it was just LSAT prep on both days. And then Fridays I would PT. So take a practice test. And then Saturdays, I would blind review the practice test. And then, so go through the questions before having the, before seeing my wrong answers, try to do the same questions again and see, I will change my answer or, keep the same answer under like no time restraints. Then see my score both compared the time score and the blind review score and then, uh, complete a wrong answer journal for all the wrong answers that I had, why I got them wrong.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Is there a pattern, all that stuff, and then Sundays were off and do that all over again. But you know, that was my life.
Speaker 1:
That’s busy. That’s good. It sounds like you maintained a healthy lifestyle though, trying to keep that routine, keep some exercise in there. You know, having that schedule and I know that’s a really big question for a lot of students who some of them are returning, so they’re working, you know, things like that. So I get a lot of questions about routine and amount of time. So it’s always good to hear somebody’s schedule, especially like you said, you scored higher than, you know, what you needed to. So that’s great. It sounds like you were on a good track there, so yeah. All right.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
If you could advise anyone who is considering the three plus three program, any last tips for them?
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Talk to as many people as you can about the program. And not just your advisor because you know, they work for the school, they work for the program, it’s in their interest for you to go to the school. But, talk to your peers who are also in the program, talk to your peers outside of the program, what they think, if you can get in contact with any of them, alumni that or anyone that’s in your prospective law school, what they think of the law school, would they, if they had the opportunity to go back, would they join the program if they didn’t, and really sit and think with yourself, like, are you okay with limiting your choice for not everyone needs options? Some people are, are okay with having like having a direct path and like not having any distractions.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
So ask yourself if you’re okay with that. See if the school is something that you’re interested in has everything that you want and can facilitate you as a lawyer because that’s their job, that’s the law school’s job. And then again, if your school is like mine, where you have to make compromises in terms of your schedule and maintaining your GPA, can you do that? And are you willing to let go of some of the freedom that comes with being an undergrad student, in order to become the graduate and pre-professional student that you’re trying to be to go to this law school. So, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Yeah. Thank you so much, Kelly, for your tips. Thank you for joining us today and helping the pre-law students out there. Before we get into my top takeaways, a quick word from our sponsor. Juno, if you need to take out student loans, check in with Juno first, Juno, can often offer law students a lower interest rate than the federal government and not only with no cost to the student, but oftentimes cash back as well. Visit joinjuno.com/P/legallearningcenter for more information.
Okay. So my top takeaways from this chat with Kelly, so the three plus three program can save you a year off your legal journey, but the savings are a little bit less than expected and she didn’t even have a firm number on that. Now, number two, the three plus three program means that you’re working hard for seven years in order to graduate a little bit faster.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
So something to keep in mind because that’s definitely not for everyone. Number three, it’s okay to change your mind. You can change directions. You are not stuck no matter what, no matter what you’ve told people, no matter what you think they might think, no matter what you think about yourself, it’s not quitting. You are doing what’s right for you, whether it’s because you’re just not getting the grades from taking all those units, whether you’re burning out, whether you don’t like the law school suddenly that you were supposed to go to it doesn’t matter what the reason is. If at any time you are unhappy, you should just change directions. It’s okay. Even if you end up taking a year off in the middle of college, talk to your advisors, of course, but it’s okay. Life is not linear. You don’t need to go as fast as possible.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Enjoy the journey as she was saying, she wanted to actually enjoy college a bit. So don’t just take the fastest or what you think might be the easiest way to get through things. Do what actually is right for you. Okay. That’s it for this episode, all the show notes and so forth will be available at legallearningcenter.com/Kelly and stay tuned next week for a special solo show where I will talk to you a bit about my own tips, some trends that I saw over the last 20 episodes and give you a little bit of background about myself and Legal Learning Center as well. So if you learned something today, please like, share, comment, subscribe so that other people can see this. If they should need it. Thank you.
