Speaker 1:
Welcome to the Legal Learning Podcast. I’m your host Jolene. And with the Legal Learning Center, I help prospective law students graduate in less time with less debt and stress so they are financially free and can live the life they always dreamed as an attorney. If you want three free strategies right now, visit legallearningcenter.com/money. And if you’re applying to law school or about to, and you want an accountability partner who knows your schedule and helps you through it, one who can review your personal statement and give you hundreds of thousands of dollars in money saving tips, stay tuned for the release of Financially Free Aspiring Attorneys Accountability Course coming June 1st. Today’s guest is Marriott Clardy Davis. She’s going to share her legal journey and mental health journey with us and teach us a unique way to study for the bar exam.
Speaker 2:
Thank you, Jolene. My name is Mariette Clardy Davis and I am owner and founder of ML, Cardy Law, LLC. It is a mental health service-based legal firm, but we also provide everything from mental health based consulting, legal services speaking, and really just everything that encompasses the anchor of mental health.
Speaker 1:
When did you start law school?
Speaker 2:
So I believe I started in 2010 ish.
Speaker 1:
Okay. And what type of program were you enrolled in?
Speaker 2:
So I was enrolled in the part-time evening program at Atlanta’s John Marshall law school in Atlanta, Georgia. So I worked full time and then at around five ish, I drove an hour to school, 45 minutes to an hour because of traffic. And I went to school from six until nine, about 3 days a week.
Speaker 1:
Okay. And so what was your intent in going into law school? Did you have an area of law that you were interested in?
Speaker 2:
You know, that is an excellent question. And initially when I went to law school, the answer was no. So a little backstory, I always wanted to be an opera singer, and I was great in debate and oratory and speaking. So when I was looking kind of at what did I want to do next in my career journey, I decided that why don’t I just go to law school? Because I felt like the skills and the qualities were equally yoked with what I had, honestly, what I wanted to do was to go into adult entertainment law, because I believe I met some adult entertainment attorneys, and I was absolutely intrigued and fascinated by them. And I was thinking that that’s what I want to be when I grow up.
Speaker 1:
That’s very specific. Did you ever go into that area of law?
Speaker 2:
I didn’t once I actually decided to interview people who were in it and really dig and figure out what it actually meant to do the work. I wasn’t drawn to the work. So I was more drawn, I think, to the persona and the image, but not necessarily their day to day work. And that became very pivotal in my journey when it came to finally deciding what I wanted to do with my legal education.
Speaker 1:
So did you interview these people before you went to law school?
Speaker 2:
I did not. And that is one thing I think I should have done. I kind of had this image, my uncle was an attorney. I had met attorneys kind of throughout my life. And so I had this image in my head of what I thought it meant to be an attorney. And so again, I didn’t interview them specifically. I believe maybe I heard them on a podcast or an interview or some kind.
Speaker 1:
Right. It’s always a little bit different. So you entered law school and how did your IL year ago?
Speaker 2:
It was very eye opening. And here’s why, because not only was I going a little later in life, but I was a nontraditional student, always. I did really well, more in the creative arts and reading and debate. And, but there were certain subjects and things that I really didn’t like. So I came into law school with this thought of, okay, I know I’m strong in these areas, but I’m not as strong in these areas. And the one thing about my 1L education is they push you further than you think that you can go. One of the things that I did realize about myself was that I knew that I needed additional support, that I would not have made it without it.
Speaker 2:
So I did a lot of the supplemental materials, like examples and explanations. And the reason why I did those is because I was a storyteller. So any supplementary material that could break things down like a storyteller. And I took advantage of a lot of office hours. I’m sure my professors were very tired of me, but I knew that if I didn’t get in front of them and ask as many questions as I could, and be honest and say, you know what, I just don’t get this and push them to make sure that I understood it. So really advocate for myself early. That was how I made it through. Because without that, if I would have just kind of relied on well I’ll just go home and figure it out, I would have never made it.
Speaker 1:
I think those office hours are so key and I never used them, but I should have. You said you were nontraditional in other ways, besides gap years. What did you mean?
Speaker 2:
So I was non-traditional with how I learned, I had a learning disability early on, I believe in elementary school. And if you can believe it, it was related to my speech. And so I was in speech classes to learn how to speak better. Pronounciate and then I had a learning disability when it came to math. And so I spent elementary, middle and high school in resource education classes. So again, when I went into law school, I knew that I was a student that needed more support because I learned very differently. I learned later in life, what that meant and how I learned and how I can leverage it. But back then I knew I wasn’t, I didn’t feel like everybody else and I knew I needed additional support. So that was a big thing. The second thing is I wasn’t the traditional student who only went to law school.
Speaker 2:
Normally, I think you go to college, then you go to law school. So I went to college, I went to grad school after that for master’s in arts, nonprofit management. And then from there, I worked for quite a few years before I even went to law school. So my vision and my lens through which I saw school itself was very different. I didn’t think about, Oh, what am I going to do for the summer? Because I worked full time. So I didn’t really have those same kind of thought processes. And I was kind of entrenched in the business world much earlier. I did consulting when I decided to go to law school and continued to do consulting. So I was non traditional in so many ways. Looking back at it, many times, I didn’t feel like I belonged there, but I still made sure that I was committed to finishing.
Speaker 1:
Yeah. That’s a lot on your plate. And then a lot, I think, to weigh on you mentally, you know, law school, I don’t think has as much math, although as a lawyer, I’ve used a lot more math than I thought I would, but in law school, not so much, but you still have that weighing on you, that you have this extra difference between potentially you and the others. So how did you make it through the first year? Was that okay?
Speaker 2:
The first year was okay. Like I said, I, I did a lot of office hours, a lot of support. Legal writing I got a D I think at one point, one quarter, I got D. That was another thing. I was a writer in a very, very different way. I was more of that creative writer storyteller. So I was just like, my writing instructor could not get me to wrap my head around legal writing. It was a lot of blood, sweat, and tears for both, because I was also very determined to say, if I don’t understand this, I will be in your office for four and a half hours. We will not eat or sleep until I get this. So that was pretty much my 1L and once I figured that out, like I said, with the office hours and the supplemental material, I actually did pretty well.
So I’m talking to you about all this drama, but on the outside, I believe at one point in the evening class, I was like number six or number seven in my class. So it wasn’t that I was doing poorly. It was that I felt like I was literally having to do 5 to 10 things more than everybody else around me in order to maintain that trajectory.
Speaker 1:
Yeah. Legal writing is a hundred percent difference. I had, the same problem. So second year, which is kind of like 1.5 for full-time students, it’s, you know, it’s a little both there. How did that go?
Speaker 2:
So second year, I think is where everything started changing. That was kind of the foray into me leaving law school and having that breakdown because I believe 2L was con law. That is forever entrenched in my mind because con law is kind of where I had this manifestation of this feeling like this is it. I don’t think that I can keep going in law school, even though, and I’m going to keep saying this, on the outside, I was actually doing okay all the way up until I think it was midterms.
Speaker 1:
So did you start noticing this the minute you returned to your education? Or, I mean, was it this building up since first year, or when did you start feeling this change?
Speaker 2:
I don’t remember exactly when, but I do know that I kept having these feelings of just being disoriented, it wasn’t even exhaustion. It was just like, like I was a zombie and it is the most, I will say strange feeling you’re there, but you’re not there. And I think, especially when it comes to law school, you have to be there. And for a while it was okay. Because like I said, I was a storyteller, so I was a good reader I could read and read and read that wasn’t the problem. But I knew eventually it would catch up to me. And it started to display symptoms in my life that were just that I could not avoid. I was diagnosed with bipolar depression when I was 21. So I’d gone through cycles and I had the eerie feeling that another one was coming as much as I tried to stop it.
Speaker 1:
Okay. Was there anything that you were able to do within the school system to extend your stay there or extend your education in any way?
Speaker 2:
So this is the sad part during that time, I will say no. And I do remember when I made the decision and I spoke to someone at the school and they were asking me about, at that time, if my memory serves me correctly, certain accommodations, but I knew just with my history of how my cycles went. And then when the depression and the darkness came, I was like, no amount of accommodations is going to pull me through this, but I don’t feel like looking back at it that I did take advantage of that of educational accommodations and even reaching out to say, you know, what can I do to pull myself through it? I think that I had taken myself to the edge and passed it. And I felt like either way, I was going to go off the cliff.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I can understand that. You are forced to just push yourself so hard in law school that you end up pushing yourself a little too hard and you don’t know until you’ve pushed a little too hard. So I shouldn’t say a little too hard. It’s a lot too hard. So, all right. So then what did you do?
Speaker 2:
So before I made the decision, I was literally sitting in con law and I will never forget this. I was reading and the words were floating off the page and I would turn the page and I couldn’t remember anything. I read it and the words from floating off and that in that class, I said, I can’t do this anymore. Literally I cannot, I can’t even remember reading a page. There was no way I’m going to make it through. So I spoke to a couple of people in the school, talked to some of my colleagues. So we went through everything together and I just told them I’m braking. In fact, I was already broken and I just can’t do this anymore.
Speaker 2:
And I had to fall on the sword. And so I said, well, I’m just going to drop out, but they encouraged me to just withdraw. And I was thinking to myself, well, I don’t really know what the difference is, but I’ll withdraw. So I withdrew and I did not end up taking the midterms. And I went into work and I told my boss, you know, I’m done. And he looked at me very eerily, like what? And I was just like, I, I just, I don’t want to talk about it, but I just can’t, I couldn’t do it anymore. And then I just kind of went back to working for while.
Speaker 1:
It must’ve been really hard because when you tell everyone you’re going to law school, coworkers, family, and then you’re just not anymore. And then of course, all these new friends you’ve made at law school, and you’re just not going to be there anymore. Did you find that hard to do?
Speaker 2:
When you are in such a dark place? It doesn’t really matter. And I was beyond the dark. I was kind of in a pit. And so I knew that something was going to give, and it was all I was already, I had already, you know, fallen on the sword in many ways. And I knew that I was in a pit and there was only one or two more places down to go. And those would have been, you know, I would not have survived. I knew that that was coming. So I said, did the only thing that I physically and mentally and spiritually knew how to do, which was remove something in my life to save my life.
Speaker 1:
Okay. Now I know you did return to law school eventually. So what was that process like? How long were you out of school?
Speaker 2:
So, like I said, I didn’t do midterms into the summer and I believe the fall. I didn’t go back. And during that time I had friends from law school that would call and check on me, just continue to be there, be a support system, be in my life, even if it was just like, Hey, we’re checking on you. Never once did they question my decision. It was just like, let me be a support system. So the calls just kept coming and I would answer them, you know, but they didn’t push. And then one day I kept getting back to back, I’ll call them interventions. So the first one was like my boss and he was talking to me and I remember, I don’t remember how we got on the subject, but he was like, you know, you need to finish.
Speaker 2:
Like, if you started this, I know that you’re dealing with a lot of stuff and you really need to finish. And then another girlfriend was like, you know, we can support you, anything that you need, like we can support you, but you’re too vital. And then the last one that I remember, it was like a group of students and they kind of gave me that intervention. Like, we need you here. You are too important. You are too worthy. You are too valuable. You are meant to do this and impact. And you know, there is no way that you should not be walking this path, you know, whatever you need, whatever support, but you need to finish this journey. And at first I kind of pushed them back because, you know, I’m still in the pit. So I’m in therapy and my medications had increased, which made, you know, it more difficult for me to function, but it was the only way I could function.
Speaker 2:
So long story short, my brain still couldn’t wrap its head around just yet. So it took time, but eventually I said, okay, let me try it. Let me see what happens if it just absolutely is not going to work that I can pull out. But I, at that time had just enough worth left where I said, I will give it one more try. And so I went back and I called the school, told them I would like to return and I returned.
Speaker 1:
So did you have to repeat the classes that you didn’t complete?
Speaker 2:
Yes. So I had to repeat those classes. I had to do my classes with the next class. And that was difficult, but long story short. Yes. I had to repeat, I believe the second, whole second year, that first, first semester, second year, and then pick back up where I left off, because when you’re in the part-time program, you also take classes over the summer. So I missed that. So I had to do that. And another summer and back again in the fall.
Speaker 1:
And for the weeks that you took before you left, you basically just lost that money. Is that right?
Speaker 2
Yes.
Speaker 1
Okay. So a little bit extra money on the table there. Wow. What is it? Something like every week is like $5,000 or something. It’s, I mean, it depends on your school and stuff, but it’s a lot of money. I had a friend drop out 1L year around November 1st, and I remember her sharing the math on that. And it was just horrifying.
Speaker 2:
Yeah. I know people who left did not come back and decided to go another route. So in all, I think it’s just whatever works for you, whatever is best for you. I know people today who are doing really well and who made a decision, that wasn’t the path for them.
Speaker 1:
Yeah. I think that most students don’t realize before they go into law school, that it actually is a bit more common than you would think to actually walk away. And that it’s okay to do that if it’s not right for you. It’s okay. So yeah. Well, I’m glad you gave it a second shot. So how did the second shot go?
Speaker 2:
It actually went okay. Because remember, I wasn’t ever really doing really badly, and this goes back to a lot of imposter syndrome where I felt like I was doing badly, even though maybe legal writing, you know, my imposter would have agree. We would have been like on the same team, but in other classes, not really, I was actually doing okay. So going back, it was much of the same, actually a lot of the same. It didn’t really feel any different except that I wasn’t necessarily in the pit. I was still in a dark place and still struggling with my bipolar depression, but I was able to do the work. I was able to continue to get the help that I needed, take advantage of office hours, took advantage of my reasonable accommodations of getting more time to take my tests so that I can kind of, a lot of the challenges that I was having was with racing, thoughts, and symptoms, where the accommodations were really helpful for me to kind of make sure that I could progress through school.
Speaker 1:
That’s great. So your first year, did you have those accommodations or were you just trying to get through without them?
Speaker 2:
So at the beginning, beginning, I don’t think I had them, but shortly after I did ask for accommodations.
Speaker 1:
And were they hard to get?
Speaker 2:
Not for me, because remember I was diagnosed at 21 and I think I went to school law school, like in my late, like mid to late twenties. So I had already been diagnosed and was in treatment and therapy and a lot of history. I had a long history for many years. So for me the answer was no.
Speaker 1:
Okay. Now I know that, you know, the American Bar Association has some statistics on the fact that something like 30% of attorneys have suffered from depression. And I think their numbers are a little low. They talk about 20% have had anxiety. I’m like, it’s more like a hundred percent, I think. So. but were you aware of those statistics before you went to law school?
Speaker 2:
No. No, because remember I went to school, went to work, went to work, went to school, came home. And so again, that whole law school life and the statistics, I was just trying to survive.
Speaker 1:
Yeah. It seems like it’s something they should at least share it at orientation, if not before that, you know, just to give you one final warning of, hey, be careful what you’re doing.
Speaker 2:
Yes. I will say the one thing I regretted that I feel like they did not do was that because when I was struggling, I felt alone. I didn’t feel like any one else was like, who I was, was suffering was diagnosed, had a diagnosis, had a condition. It felt very isolating and that I couldn’t really speak up and out about it. I didn’t feel like there was an environment that felt not necessarily safe because I felt safe around my student body. But it wasn’t an environment where that was encouraged. I will say that.
Speaker 1:
Did you have any further struggles? I mean, obviously it’s a daily struggle, but I mean, did you have any further like bumps in that road over the next couple of years?
Speaker 2:
Yeah. So the biggest bump was when I got out and I was studying for the bar. That again was a very difficult part in my journey. And there were many times where I had breakdowns and was crying and sobbing on the floor because I couldn’t figure out how to wrap my head around how I learned and how to prepare for the bar so that I was successful. And it took, I remember hiring multiple tutors and I still wasn’t getting anywhere. And then I sat down, I remember this in my office. I was studying at seven o’clock at night in my office. And I said, okay, if you learn different, and if there is a way for you to do it differently and still do well, what would that look like? So I literally started Googling and I started looking at like mind mapping and all of these other things.
Speaker 2:
And I came across this one strategy where it was like, you would put a concept on an object that you see every day. So we’ll use that example, like your mic, and you would associate that term with your mic and it would imprint into your brain. And I would go around the entire office. My boss probably doesn’t know this and I would put legal concepts because I had gone, I’d go to my office every day and I would keep them there. And it connected, things slowly started connecting. And I found that on Google. And then I went back to another tutor and was like, this isn’t working, I need another strategy. And he gave me the strategy of not looking at the answers. And he’s like, you know, just read the question, don’t look at the answers. What is the answer? Okay. And then if that’s the answer, go straight to it.
Speaker 2:
If that’s not the answer, you know, which ones, is it absolutely not. And remove those and then go find your answer. And I started doing that. And then I think the third thing was teaching myself. So I would do an essay. I would read the answers, understand the answers. And then I would literally like with a stuffed animal, teach them the essay question and it forced my brain. And so when I walked into the bar, you couldn’t tell me nothing, because I was like waffle house = mailbox, Ingles sign = microphones, all went back to, I had to be my own advocate because nobody would have done that for me and all of my journeys, especially in the world of legal, revolved around those types of stories.
Speaker 1:
That is awesome. Walking into the bar exam, thinking about Teddy bears and mini blinds and whatever else. It’s just amazing how we’re all so different, how we learn so different. And that is just, I’ve never heard of anyone studying for the bar exam that way. That is awesome. I love it. And so did you pass on the first time? I did.
Speaker 2
Yes.
Speaker 1
Awesome. That’s a really great, that must have felt really rewarding after going from a place of, you know, I can’t do this anymore to, this is really hard, I’m struggling, but I’m doing it. And then actually completing it.
Speaker 2:
Yes. It was very liberating for me because it showed me one vital thing that I did not carry with me prior, which was that I was my own advocate and that I had to create worth internally and build things so that I could find my own value because without that, no one else was going to give that to me. And that was something I struggled with even after that. But it was something that helped me realize the value of self-advocacy. And even in some ways reinforced, like if I could do this for myself, I could do this for other people and advocate because I know what it feels like when clients, you know, call me and they’re sobbing, I’ve been where they have been.
Speaker 1:
So let’s talk about that. What type of clients you help today
Speaker 2:
Well, the mental health journey ended up being my guiding star and trust me, I ran and hid from it and for as long as I could, but I went in so many different directions and always came back to it that nothing in a lot of the traditional worlds excited me. There were certain things within those worlds, like within the criminal and the transaction and the business and the tax, but the whole world itself was not something that I felt like I could chart my course. And so it took many years. I will be absolutely honest because I didn’t really know who I was. I didn’t know myself and I was really lost. So when I finally did figure it out and say, okay, I’m going to do mental health. I’m going to do mental health law. Then the next thing was, well, what does that actually mean?
Speaker 2:
Because it’s, again, a very non-traditional path. So I had to find people who did mental health and figure out what they did and what I liked and what I didn’t like. So what I do now fast forward to today, and again, it’s still an evolution and that’s a great thing about mental health laws. There are so many different avenues, I do primarily behavioral health council. So whether that’s working with caregivers, patients, and providers in the behavioral health treatment setting I do a lot of training and education and legal topics surrounding mental health. And in 2021 specifically, I’m focused on workplace mental health and workplace mental health issues, whether it is accommodations, whether it is leadership, training and development, and really consulting and counseling with leaders who themselves are burnt out and fatigued and don’t understand the implications of what, how that impacts their employees. And if it’s a facility, how that even impacts patient outcomes and really helping to attempt to attack mental health from the bottom up and the top down.
Speaker 1:
Well, I love what you’re doing. I’m so glad you’re doing it. It’s really necessary. And I’m hoping that more people who hear this start to maybe make this a real known area of law, you know, something that they say, I want to go to law school to do this because there are so many areas of law out there. And we’re really taught just like when we’re kids and we’re taught, okay, do you want to be a doctor? Do you want to be a lawyer? Do you want to be teachers kind of like these three things? And then as a lawyer we’re taught like, okay, so do you want to go into like big law? Do you want to go into nonprofit law? And like, you know, criminal defense. So they’re like, that’s it. So it’s nice to have these areas that people are creating and developing and sharing so that more people can be exposed to the options and really find their dream career. Absolutely. All right. So if students wanted to find you to find out more about what you do or, you know, whether it’s potential clients out there who need your help, where can they find you?
Speaker 2:
Well, I have my website, MLclardylaw.com. But for more of like the day to day more up to date information, I would check out my social media. So I’m on LinkedIn, under ML Clardy law. And my name Mariette Clardy Davis. I’m also on Ig MarrietteLynn_creative because I want to, you know, my creative side. And then I’m also on Facebook, under my name, Marriott Clardy Davis and ML Clardy law. And then I also have a YouTube channel as well. So I would recommend following me on social media because as I roll new things out and have new events and upcoming things, most of my information is up to date on social media.
Speaker 1:
Sounds amazing. I’m going to have to find you on YouTube. All right. Well, thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 2:
Thank you. Thank you for having me
Speaker 1:
Before we get into my top takeaways, a quick word from our sponsor Juno, if you need to take out student loans, check in with Juno first. Juno can often offer law students 1-2% lower interest rates than the federal government and with no origination fees and often times cash back as well. Visit advisor.legallearningcenter.com/juno for more information.
My top takeaways from this chat with Mariette, number one, you need to listen to yourself and learn from yourself. She knew it wasn’t working. She couldn’t do it anymore. She had to take a break. She also knew when she studied for the bar exam, that things weren’t working and she had to figure it out for herself. So she had some help, but really she’s the one who figured it out. She saw the method that was going to work for her, and it did it
Speaker 1:
Number two, be resourceful. So don’t just accept that here’s the study program for the bar exam. And if it doesn’t work for you, it’s never gonna work for you. Look around and that applies during law school, before law school at any time, just be resourceful.
Number three, a pause does not have to mean a stop. Sometimes it is appropriate to just leave law, but sometimes a pause is just that it’s a pause and you can go back and you can win. You can succeed. So just pay attention to what your body’s telling you and what the world around you is telling you.
Now a full transcript will be available legallearningcenter.com/Mariette. Show notes will be there as well. Next week, we’re going to have a very special episode where you’ll get to see part of one of my one-on-one sessions. Mckayla will share her law school, acceptances and packages, and we’re going to work through how she should approach and compare these schools. As always, if you learn something today, please like share comment, subscribe so that this show is more visible and can help those who may need it. Thanks.
