Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to the Legal Learning Podcast. I’m your host Jolene. And with the Legal Learning Center, I help prospective law students save time, money, and stress on their legal journey. Today’s guest is Angela Vorpahl. She also helps prospective law students, but in a very different way. So stay tuned to hear how she may be able to help you. And if you want three free strategies to save on your legal journey, visit legallearningcenter.com/money. Also, if you’re applying to law school or about to, and you need an accountability partner, someone who knows your schedule and can help you through it. One who can review your personal statement and give you hundreds of thousands of dollars in money saving tips, stay tuned for the release of Financially Free Aspiring Attorneys and Accountability course coming in June. All right, let’s get into the call.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Hi Jolene. Thank you so much for having me. So I am a lawyer turned law school coach, and I help students get the grades to build their career on their own terms. And I got into sort of this coaching business, for a few different reasons, but one of the big ones was that I sort of noticed that this sort of not even misunderstanding, but kind of gap in knowledge about how to do law school and how to do it well was persisting even 10 years out. And so when I went into law school, I had no idea what I was doing, and I just assumed that that problem got solved over the last 10 years. And what I was realizing was that I was interacting with a lot of pre law students and law students. And it still wasn’t, it was still a really big unknown.
There were still a lot of questions about how do I prepare, how do I compete for top grades? What do I want to do with my law degree and how do I make that a reality? And so it was sort of funny because I, I kind of fell onto this almost by accident or backed up into it by accident. Because about three years ago, I had all of these thoughts in my head and frustrations of the unknowns, like these gaps in knowledge and the industry, just things that were expected to know, but no one tells us, so there’s no way we could actually know them. And I kind of channeled all of these frustrations into a YouTube channel. And so basically what I decided was I need to get this out into the world somehow, and I’m not really sure how, and I became, at the time, I was really enamored with YouTube, which is, you know, kind of late in the game to like really get into it.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Um, but I was really obsessed with Casey Neistat. And I don’t know if you guys are Casey Neistat fans, but he’s like the original daily vlogger. And I realized that the episodes like his YouTube videos that I felt most connected to were the ones where he was talking about, you know, overcoming and not using, you know, life difficulties as an excuse and things like that. And so what that translated to for me was for the first time, seeing YouTube as an educational platform, like you could actually get real information and talk to people that way, as opposed to just, I don’t know, like music videos and like short sketches, comedy sketches and celebrity interviews, which I was kind of using it for before that. And so I decided to start making these videos and it was so interesting because originally the focus was brand new lawyers.
So all the things that you don’t know about how to be a good lawyer and do a legal career when you start and then I started doing like some higher level videos, just kind of like what a lawyer is and what a lawyer does and what the day-to-day looks like and things like that. And I realized I was getting so much more engagement from people on those more basic sort of high level videos. And the questions I was getting were from people not even, you know, starting their legal careers, but just thinking about whether they wanted to go to law school. And so I realized, okay, there’s so much more of a need kind of early on about, do I even want to do this thing? What is this thing? And then how do I do it well? And so that’s what I started creating more and more content around.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
And so then when I decided to start a coaching business, I was like, okay, who am I going to help here? Because there’s just this long continuum of, you know, pre law students, law students, and new lawyers. And at first I thought like, Oh, I can help everybody. But then you start to realize that each little group actually has very specific needs and questions and strategies. Um, that would be way too overwhelming to try to teach from zero to a hundred, you know, just starting out. And so what I wound up doing was I started a beta course and I was just like, okay, like this is a free course. Anybody can sign up. And I just really didn’t expect that much of a reaction. And within 24 hours, I had to shut it down because there were just too many people that had signed up.
And I was like, Oh my gosh, I have no idea how to run a group coaching program of this size. And so what I realized through that experience was that 95% of the people were people heading into law school. So kind of yeah, what do I do from day one to really take full advantage of this thing and this investment I’m making in this degree. Um, and so that’s when I decided, okay, this is where the need is. This is where the focus is. And that’s when I launched the law school master plan, which is like the, you know, kind of nuts and bolts, A to Z of how to prepare and how to do well. And so it’s just been so much fun to work with students and kind of like relive that experience, because I think for a lot of us lawyers law school is one of the most stressful, most damaging parts of our lives in a lot of ways. Like it’s so overwhelming and it’s so unknown it’s so incredibly stressful. And so it just felt really, really rewarding to be able to give people that roadmap and that action plan to let them know what to do and how to do it so that they could overcome those feelings of just total loss newness in the oblivion.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
I love that. Lostness. You said something that was so important about what you cover on the YouTube channel, which is that there are so many things that are unknown in the entire legal industry. I mean, from start to finish we’re told that law school is very different than undergrad, but it’s very hard to explain it to someone who hasn’t been through it. And so, no matter how hard you try, it’s still this nebulous thing. And then even if you intern as an undergrad for a law firm, they never expose you to what it’s like to be a lawyer, really. And then when you do it in law school, half the time, you’re still not exposed and you’re only exposed to one area of law. And so it’s just, the whole process is a little bit horrendous and vague.
And so having a YouTube channel like yours is just so great because it really breaks everything down into little bite sized pieces. It gives them the information they need and they can go from subject to subject, whether it’s, again pre-law or post law, you know, when you’re practicing and you’re right, they all need help. And it’s hard. I think there’s a phrase like if you’re helping everybody, you’re helping nobody kind of thing. So it totally makes sense that, you know, the course needs to kind of just narrow it down. The YouTube can still I’m sure. Help everybody, because even pre-law students need to understand what’s going to happen on the tail end. Tell me a little bit more about the Law School Master Plan.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Yeah. So the Law School Master Plan is designed specifically for incoming 1Ls. So 0L’s as they’re called, and it goes through three phases. So the first phase is how to prepare for law school. So all the steps you can take the summer before you start to get yourself prepared, to know what you’re getting into and to know how to hit the ground running from day one. And then phase two is the beat the curve system. So it’s all about how to use your time in law school, most effectively, most efficiently to compete for top grades, because without a doubt, as a law student, the strongest ammo that you have in your arsenal are your grades, because you don’t have any substantive experience to really sell to a law firm or a legal employer. And so all legal employers will first look at your grades before they make further determinations on hiring.
And so I think that there’s an understanding that, yes, this is an academic field, like grades are important, but I think there’s less of an understanding how crazy important they are and how important your 1L grades are. So your first year grades, because that can absolutely determine if you play that scenario out long enough, what your first job is out of, out of law school. Um, and so I think there’s this sense that you can kind of figure it out as you go, and you can kind of take your time and then what tends to happen is people fall behind. They get behind and, and they’re playing catch up with people who started off incredibly strong and incredibly confident from day one. And so that is the biggest piece that I want people to understand and give them the steps and strategies to be able to do so that they lose no time on this incredibly big investment in time, energy and money.
And then the third phase is how to land your 1L summer job. Um, because there’s a lot of questions around that too, in terms of like, when do I start and what are the options and what does that look like? And, I only have one semester of grades kind of how do I sell myself? And so the idea is that it takes people all the way through the first year to know exactly what to do, and then have this process that they can then rinse and repeat to use for the second year and third year as well.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Yeah. I am definitely a victim of that. I thought I knew what I was doing my first semester and my grades were horrendous and it took, luckily I had a top scoring mentor and he gave me his finals. And so, unfortunately this was after finals, of course the questions are different, but I could compare, how did I write my answer versus how did he write his answer? And the sad reality was his answers were a lot more simplistic than mine, but they got to the point. And that’s what part of what you need to do right. Aside from actually knowing what you’re talking about. But yeah, absolutely. But it’s how to convey it, how to do it. And when I saw it, it was so upsetting because it was like, I could do that. I mean, that’s like writing to a first grader. I was trying to write to, you know, a professor and they wanted me to write to a first grader. So it was very frustrating, but it was super enlightening. And, and at the same time, it was also very comforting to know that it’s not like I had to work harder. I just had to work differently. And if I had known that in advance, that would have been so great.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
That’s what’s so nuts is because, you know, in the legal community is not crazy big. Like you can very easily get to know a lot of people really fast. And, you know, just speaking with a lot of, you know, colleagues and friends and things, there are so many incredibly intelligent, incredibly hardworking people that didn’t do well in law school. And it wasn’t because they weren’t smart enough or they weren’t hardworking enough. It’s because there is a method and there is a system to, to study, to prepare and to do well on final exams. And no one is teaching it. And in my opinion, in enough of a cohesive, thorough way to where these steps are broken down into tiny enough pieces, that you can not only understand them, but visually see how they’re being implemented. And I think all schools are trying to be better about that.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
I think they’re, you know, they have some kind of like entering 1L programs and they’ll talk kind at a high level about outlining of final exams, but then I’ll still have students come to me say, here’s the course. Here’s the talk that was given, here’s the example the professor gave, here’s the example answer they gave. I still have no idea what to do. And so it’s, I mean, it’s crazy to think that, but it’s like to that level of specificity of understanding like how this process works and it just got to the point of I was so frustrated to know that, you’ve worked so hard to get here, like through college or through grad school or working in the LSAT and applications and you’re here. Um, and then it’s almost like you’re set up to fail because no one is giving this like, very, very clear roadmap of how to really use the time and the talent and the work ethic that, you know, you have, and you just need to channel it in the most effective, efficient way.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
That’s exactly how I felt. I felt like they were completely hiding the ball, even though they claim they were kind of giving me the answers. And so, yeah, I agree with you now, my concern is if students are taking courses, like you said, the school offers some or like yours before school starts, with your course, I mean, is there a chance of extra burnout or earlier burnout, or is this actually just making things more efficient and easier?
Speaker 2 (13:06):
That’s such a good question. And one that I really was struggling with because my fear was, they need to know this information, but I don’t want it to be, to such an extent that yeah, they feel exhausted before they even start law school. Um, and there’s all this extra stuff you can know, and I’ve been very, very, very reluctant to give anything extra in the sense of what is nice to know, but not need to know because the need to know stuff is already so thorough and so extensive, that I, what I’ve done is I’ve basically very clearly marked the boundaries here’s need to know, here is if you have extra time and you just feel like you want to take extra steps, here are things that you can do to further prepare.
And I’ll give you an example. So there’s all these skills that I think that are helpful to becoming a successful law student and a successful lawyer. And some of those are things like writing skills, public speaking skills, typing skills, speed reading skills. Okay. So all of those, yes, those are nice to have. Um, they also take time to develop. And so I don’t want to pretend like you can just, you know, become an awesome public speaker in a week, that being said, I do have students come to me. And the most extreme example of this was someone who came to me, who said he had already taken the LSAT he’s in his thirties, he’s a professional, he’s working. He’s decided to apply for the next law school cycle. So the 2022 cycle. And he said, I basically have 18 months to prepare for law school. Every lawyer I talked to says, there’s nothing I can do to prepare. Um, I cannot believe that that’s true, like what I do.
And so I was in a situation where I was like, to be completely honest, I’ve never thought about an 18 month law school prep plan. I do think it’s possible. Um, and we walked through and like broke down the things that I thought that he could work on, depending on how much, you know, how many hours per week he wanted to put into it. Um, and a lot of that stuff was not the nitty gritty of exactly what to do day one in terms of like reading and class and outlining because that needs, in my opinion, needs to happen very close in time to when you’re actually going to be going through the steps for that to really make sense, and for you to get the biggest return on your time investment. And so there are definitely other things you can do, but I’m very, very, like aware and cautious about putting too much on people’s plates. Um, because yeah, again, the things you need to know are already so extensive that putting any nice to know stuff. I actually think like, to your point is more detrimental to a lot of people than helpful.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Yeah. I know. I was so burnt out by May. And again, I could definitely use some help, but yeah, it would have to be very specific because adding onto that plate would have just been too much. So that’s great that you’re, I mean, I’m sure you’re aware of it, but yes, it’s great to hear you’re aware of it.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
The other thing too, I think that’s really important is that, and this is something that I realized when I was creating the program, I was like, Oh, I can’t just create the program, teach these things. And then walk away
Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, like learning it as one thing. But having someone walk with you through the process as you’re going through it is a completely different level of support and understanding. So even if you know, and I literally had students tell me this, like, even though I know how to outline, I know all the steps, I still had such resistance and a mental block around it that I didn’t even start, even though I knew that I should. And so I asked them, would it be helpful if we walked through it in real time? Like, you literally see me, you know, taking a piece of your class notes and outlining, and then they’d be like, yes, that would be so helpful. And that’s what I implemented, like, okay, it’s not enough just to teach it.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
It’s not enough just to know it, there needs to be like this ongoing support system there, so that, um, if when you hit resistance, which is inevitable for all of us, um, or you still have those doubts and fears of like, am I doing this right? I know there’s this one big exam at the end of the semester that, you know, in most cases, a hundred percent of my grade, like, I, it just is helpful to hear somebody say, yes, you’re on the right track. Yes, you’re doing the right thing and get that positive feedback because in law school, you just don’t have that. That’s like one of the things that makes it so difficult is you’re, you’re alone and you’re kind of floating. And you’re just hopeful that what you’re doing is the right thing. And there’s no way to know until you get that grade.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
For sure. It’s such a travesty that a hundred percent of your grade is a final, there’s no way to see if you’re doing okay along the way, and you either are outlining correctly or not correctly. And you don’t really know until it’s too late, you don’t know if you’re writing the exam correctly. And so I can totally see the value of having someone just by your side, little like Jimminy Cricket on your shoulder kind of thing. You’re right.
So I know we were talking before, too about imposter syndrome and how this is just kind of rampant throughout every step of the legal community, as far as when you’re applying. I think it’s kind of running in the background. And then when you show up at orientation, it’s there and your first day, when we’re not passing out, syllabi we are working on our first day and you’re just like, wow, we really are? They told me we were, but I didn’t believe them, you know, even in college, they handed out syllabus on the first day and, you know, and then again, if you have those bad grades come in, and so again, you feel it’s just a constant rampant thing throughout law school. So I know you’ve addressed like every topic on earth, on your YouTube. So, so what do you think about the imposter syndrome? How can we get around this? What advice do you have for us?
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Yeah, so I think that imposter syndrome is such an interesting topic because I just love diving into like the psychological aspects of what makes us tick and how we function and a few thoughts here. So I think that there are certain things that lend themselves to creating this feeling of imposter syndrome, specifically in law school, specifically for law students. And then as we were sort of talking through this, I thought of kind of five ways that we can use to combat this and kind of have an answer for these thoughts that I know are very common in our brains. And so in terms of why we think this, or I think what the sources are and why, why this thing is caused are a few things. So for a lot of law students, and a lot of including the students that I coached, a lot of people were at the top of their class.
So got very good grades in high school, in college if they went to grad school. Um, and so for the first time, and I guess very important part here too, a lot of the students that tell me this, say that they didn’t really have to work that hard, that they were able to sort of rely on, you know, their intelligence or their ability to memorize or cram at the last minute. And so they were able to get A’s and be at the top of their class without putting in a lot of effort and energy. And so when you get to law school, because of the type of work and the way that it’s taught for a lot of us, it’s sort of like hitting a wall for the first time where those types of study tactics don’t work anymore. And we can’t rely on sort of like brute force and like white knuckling to get us through it anymore.
And so I think that, that sort of like come to Jesus moment is like very tough for a lot of us. Cause we’ve just been so comfortable in our abilities up until that point. So I think that’s a big part of it. Um, I think another part of it too, that a lot of people maybe know, but don’t fully grasp until they get to law school is just how impressive the people around them are. And so, again, like a lot of us were at the top of our classes, but then in law school, you get sort of this self-selected pool of people who are also at the top of their classes and like very hardworking and very motivated and very high achieving. And so I think a lot of us kind of look around and, you know, terribly overused analogy, but like big fish in small ponds and now small fish in a big pond in terms of like our abilities and the abilities of the people around us.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
So I think that that’s a big, a big like shock factor as well. And then we were kind of talking about this, but just like the work and the type of work and the amount of work for law school too, I think is a very big shock. And so the work itself, like reading through the cases, it’s incredibly dense, it’s incredibly confusing and convoluted, and there’s so much of it. And there just as so much of it, and you’re just inundated from day one, which is what you were saying too, to really like, get through all of this. And so you feel like an avalanche, or I like to say, like, you feel like you’re drinking from a fire hose, like just from day one, it’s completely overwhelming. And so again, a lot of us were able to sort of read for class or not, or take notes or not study at the last minute and do well.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
And in law school, if you don’t start at a hundred percent from day one, it is almost impossible to catch back up. And so, you know, and I think for a lot of us, I know I didn’t realize that. Um, and so it’s very, very tough to, to sort of not only grasp the concepts, but also figure out a way to use your time to even get through everything, like, even at the most basic level. Um, and so those are kind of the types of things that I see a lot of law students and myself included struggle with when we first start law school.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Yeah. It’s just bringing it all back. I don’t think I want to have this conversation. Like the PTSD is coming, but yeah, you’re absolutely right though. I mean, I had a friend who, one of my friends I met in law school who was just not prepared at all and she wasn’t attending class and she was treating it like it was college part 2. She ended up dropping out by November 1st because she just was so behind and so off. And I mean, she literally started law school sleeping on someone’s couch, so she didn’t even have a place to live. So, and she was in LA without a car as well. So, I mean, it’s just multiple factors, but you can’t start that way. It’s hard enough to even stay on track when you are ready to go. And yeah, everything you’re saying is it’s absolutely true.
I think it was episode three. I had Dan on and where he talked about, he just skirted by, he always got the good grades and got into a good law school and everything was fine and dandy until his first week of law school. And he though, this is kind of real like, Oh. Yeah. Like this is not going to go well, no, not this is not the same at all.
So I want to make sure that students can find you wherever they may need you. Cause it sounds to me like they’re going to need you, so what is your YouTube channel?
Speaker 2 (24:24):
So it’s just youtube.com/angelavorpahl. And then all of my social media handles are at Angela Vorpal. And so usually I’m most active in the YouTube community page, on Instagram and then in my Facebook group, which is Law School Network.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Okay. And then as far as your course, is that just generally available or do they have to sign up at a certain date and time? Or how does that work?
Speaker 2 (24:49):
The door’s open a few times a year and the next time they’re going to open is in June. So anyone who’s interested in learning more can absolutely sign up for the wait list at lawschoolmasterplan.com.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Perfect. Okay. So I highly recommend you guys check that out because let me tell you, I think my life would have been a lot different if I had had somebody just helping me through that first, just semester leading up to the first semester, the first semester. Yeah. After that, you kind of get it. I mean, yeah. You might need some help here and there, but definitely it’s that first semester. That’s just traumatic. Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Angela.
Speaker 2
Yeah, my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
Before we get into my top takeaways, a quick word from our sponsor, Juno. If you need to take out student loans, check in with Juno first, Juno can often offer law students 1-2% lower interest rates than the federal government and with no origination fees and oftentimes cash back as well. Visit advisor.legallearningcenter.com/Juno for more information.
My top takeaways from this chat with Angela, number one, make sure you’re watching her YouTube channel. She has all kinds of important tips for you. Number two, check out Law School Master Plan for help succeeding in your 1L year. Make sure you visit her website and just make sure you know, all the information and all that’s available to you. Number three, imposter syndrome is so real for so many reasons. I don’t want to recap the whole show, but really it’s just important that you know, it’s okay. You’re not alone.
So that’s it for this episode, all the tips links and so forth will be in the show notes. You can get a full transcript at legallearningcenter.com/Angela.
