Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to the legal learning podcast. I’m your host Jolene. And with the legal learning center, I help prospective law students save $300,000 on law school. Today I’m joined by Amanda Haverstick. She’s a law school coach, and she’s going to share with us all the wonderful things she does to help her students.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hi, I’m Amanda Haverstick. I graduated law school in 1996, so it’s been a long time and I practiced for about 20 years. And then during the pandemic switched to helping students who are in law school. I also helped junior lawyers with writing and I love it. I love writing. I love working with young people. I have three daughters between 18 and 22, so I’m pretty much close with everyone. So in that terms of the being with the pulse of what people are thinking about.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Awesome. And I know you said you help pre-loss students as well, right?
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Yes. Well, I’ve worked on a lot of people will send personal statements to me or they will just want some coaching on resumes. I’ve actually done quite a few resumes and I wish I could teach everyone how to use Microsoft word. I’ve noticed that everyone must have used Google docs. That’s what my kids did, but no one knows how to format anything. And so you get these resumes and they’re, you know, they’re supposed to be flushed to the right, all the dates lined up and everyone’s who sends it to me, their D their things are all not lined up. So I try to help them and teach them and try to make it what would be good for applying to law school.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
That’s great. And that goes back to the same writing piece that you helped junior attorneys with. It sounds like,
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah, it’s, you know, I have one long-term client and his first language is not English, although he’s completely fluent, but as you can imagine writing about the law, which is very complicated, it’s hard. And you, even, if you learned all the grammar rules, it’s very hard to stick with them when you’re writing about something complicated. And so that’s been really neat. I’m helping another, I guess he’s a, he’s a judicial clerk and then, but he’s switching. I think he’s done now. But he’s working on publishing an article, so I’m helping him with that. And I don’t know, it’s people call sort of randomly, so I try to just be accommodating. Okay.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Yeah, you’re absolutely right. Even with English being my first language writing is hard.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
It definitely is. And first year writing is definitely the it’s the most time consuming and you think it’s not going to be that hard because it’s just writing. And if you’ve gotten yourself to law school, you’re all good at studying. And you’re really good writers, good enough to do well in school, but it’s just such a different skill. And it’s something about which I’m really passionate and I love writing. And so I enjoy it. I could edit forever and just change words to make it more concise and more powerful and persuasive. So that’s probably my funnest part of my job is working on the writing with people and teaching them, and then I’ll get something, a new project from them and they’ll send it to me. And when I see that they’ve incorporated, some of the things we’ve talked about and worked on, I find that extraordinarily rewarding. So, yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
So, okay. So what is the difference then between law school writing and writing the students have done before?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Usually people in college can write research papers or analysis papers, and there’s a lot of creativity and you are allowed to write the way you want to, as long as it’s in good English. And it’s pretty straightforward because you’re writing about facts and things you’ve read and researched. And when you’re writing about the law, it’s, it starts out being very structured and formulaic. And a lot of people, myself included when I was a first year law student really bristled under that because I prided myself on being an extraordinary writer and all these things. And then you get there and I would get, I would get memos back and they would say, well, it’s very well written, but you completely missed the point of the exercise. And so, and it was just, it’s very hard and I don’t really know why it’s so hard, but I knew it was hard for me.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
And it’s really hard for all my students. So I try to cut through that and not just help them with the writing, but do just some coaching. And some cheerleading law school is really, it’s kind of a daunting process and it’s scary cause you it’s a whole new world. And I think everyone needs someone in their corner, cheering them, wanting to hear about their day, hear about it. And it, obviously someone who’s done it and knows, knows what’s being taught and what’s being expected and has worked with tons of junior associates coming right out of law school and adapting to how to, how to write in a law firm, which is different than writing in law school. I won’t even get into that because that’s another area of frustration, but it’s also really fun because when you get it and once you get the structure, then you can have some creativity in terms of both your thinking and the words you use and how it sounds. And it’s really beautiful. And I love that. So I that’s, that’s just something I just, I love working on something and then feeling really good when it all comes together at the end. So I try to get students there faster than they would and save them some banging their head against the wall because it can definitely it’ll, you know, late nights. And you’re trying to figure things out. It’s really hard and it’s nice to have someone to text with and, and just chat and get and get some thoughts. So,
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Yeah, I absolutely agree it’s it is totally different. And for me, I’m a little bit more of a mathematical, a plus B equals C type of person. So once I figured out what they want it, for me, that type of writing just really clicked for me. I was never very much a creative writer. So, you know, those 10 page papers I had to do nonstop in undergrad were torturous for me versus law school is like, just be concise. I’m like, I can do that. Thank you. So it worked for me, but and yeah, and then as an attorney, my briefs yeah. Are different than most other people’s because again, I’m super to the point and super like cutting out a hundred percent of the fat, you know, and I think that’s really hard for a lot of people. So
Speaker 2 (06:59):
It really is. And I think that also as you, when you’re in college, you feel great that you’ve been able to draft these long, sophisticated sentences about abstract philosophers and historical things that are very, you know, it’s hard and good, and you’ve written these beautiful pieces. And then to have professors want you to write in five word sentences, you know, aged juicy period, but on the other hand and seated X to G and that’s it, and it’s very formulaic. And so it can be really frustrating. So it’s nice to have someone who will sort of help be fit in.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
So, so you mentioned as far as helping these students, that you also coach and that you’re available for them. So what does that look like?
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Well, with all my students, I’ve really developed just a rapport where people feel very comfortable talking to me, I’m usually very open and we’ll share things about me and people open up to me and it can be a very sort of like if you went off to outward bound or you went to a foreign country and were living with a family that didn’t speak English and you didn’t, you know, you were learning the language. And so you’re just completely immersed in law school. And a lot of you mean your friends, unless you have people who’ve been to law school or, and who are lawyers or who did something else, but went through law school. They often don’t understand the challenges and how rigorous it is and how voluminous the reading. But it’s, it’s not just a lot of comm volume. It’s the thinking and the way your, they try, you have to try to change the way you think.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
And that’s sort of a cliche. Everyone talks about that to think like a lawyer, but there’s a lot going on in your brain. That’s just sort of happening as you’re reading and thinking about things. And you’re probably not fully aware that it’s happening, but it can make you tired. It can make you lose confidence and it can just make you feel alone a bit. And I think it’s really important to have someone who, you know, is a hundred percent on your side, who always thinks you’re right and the teacher’s wrong and who will cause if you feel more confident, you’re going to do a better job, regardless. If even if you don’t remember everything for the test or you miss a point, if you go in confident, you’re gonna, you’re just gonna feel better. And when you go into class and you know, what’s expected and you’ve sort of practiced with me beforehand, it just makes it all a lot less scary.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
And I find that, especially in the first semester but the full full year, first year, cause it takes people, some people get it somewhere mid first semester or some people get it right before exams. Others don’t get it really until the spring. And until this sort of light bulb goes off in your brain starts naturally working the way you need to have at work in order to master these very complicated concepts in the first place, and then apply them to brand new situations that that hypothetical’s, that just were never contemplated when the rules were written and how to deal with them. It’s just nice to have someone to talk through it all and know that you can always come to me. And I’m glad I got your back and I’m here for you. And if I need to stay up till three in the morning with you doing something, I will, as long as I have a little advance notice, but it’s just to sort of have someone on, on call all the time. And I think I know from my students that that’s been very valuable to them.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Yeah. It’s so hard to picture this, I think before you get into law school, but it really can be depending on your school, a very competitive environment. And even if it’s not competitive, technically you’re all being graded against each other. So when you need that confidence boost, if you’re like, Hey, I really don’t get this to a classmate, depending on the level of competition at that school, somebody might lead you astray on purpose. They also view
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Accidentally cause they have no clue either. Exactly.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Or it could be accidental or they could intentionally just not help you because again, the competitiveness, I mean, I went to an ultra competitive school, so I’ve seen all kinds of craziness, but yeah, we only asked each other pretty basic questions. We didn’t really dig deep into like anything. And if you missed class, I mean you better have a friend because it’s pretty hard to get those notes.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
I know it really is. And I think it’s also a good thing to think about when students are choosing, once they get into everywhere they applied and they’re making this choice, I’m thinking perfect world to really think about that culture wise. I went to Boston college law school purposely because it has had at least in the nineties, a very strong reputation of being very collaborative and not being cutthroat. And I, even though I sure I could have gone to a quote better or higher ranked school. I, you know, at my father had all these connections, but I, I had hated college and I wanted to go somewhere where I would enjoy it and feel the comradery. And I definitely think that law schools are not all the same. And if you, you should sort of think about your own personality and where you’re going to thrive because oftentimes if you go to a lesser ranked school and you’re the big fish in a smaller pond, you’re going to rise to the top and be much well, you’ll be better trained because you will have really learned the material, but also you’re going to be a lot more attractive to potential employers and someone, maybe they went to a T 14 school, but they’re the bottom 20% of their class.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
And they never really got it. They just kind of got by. And so it’s something to think about when you’re choosing on law schools to,
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Yeah, my school definitely you know, kept waiting people out even after first year. And so if you graduated from there, they had a decent bar passage rate. It was, you know, you were pretty well set for, you know, employers, you know, it wasn’t high ranked, so it wasn’t going to be yet the big firms, but it was going to be just everything in the middle, everything in between, you know, and yeah, but it’s that competitiveness was, it was very wearing. And yet you don’t have someone to ask questions of really. So it’s nice to have someone outside the school that you can trust that isn’t going to lead you astray and actually does know the end result as well, because it’s not just, Hey, how do I get through this first semester? It’s how does this impact me longterm? You know, am I making bad decisions? Long-Term even though maybe a seems like a short term decision.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
And I also think there’s so much more to, in terms of applying for summer jobs and networking and just this whole world, which is very exciting. And I absolutely love it. And I, this has been my adult life doing this, but until you’ve done it, how do you know, oh, that in the end of June, July after first year, I’m going to have to start applying for jobs for the following summer after second year and things like that. And so just to start thinking into, do things in advance, have your resume already get, have your writing sample ready because a lot of jobs will ask for that, have everything lined up that you can before you’re mired in coursework and don’t have the time. And so I think that just tips like that and, but to really not just high-level, but really get into nitty gritty and to talk about different firms can be really helpful just also to hear about, because I do work with so many students, I know what other people are thinking or doing, and I’ll gain a lot of information from about jobs and things that way.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
And it’s just, it’s, it’s like networking with everything. I mean, I think the more people you talk to you sort of absorb it all and you feel more comfortable. So because I sort of live and breathe this stuff, I have a lot of just things I’ve heard or I just met with someone and he mentioned that judge, he’s really good friends with him. Maybe I can get your resume there or something like that. And it happens all the time. And so I think it’s nice to have someone who, you know, is looking out for you, who might see something that, that is helpful to you that is gonna afford it to you, and it’s not gonna cost you anything. It’s just, I need to do it. There’s a lot that I just do because I want it to be helpful that isn’t sort of included in what something might pay for.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Yeah, no, that’s awesome. And it’s really good to know too. Yeah, it’s true. Once you’ve been out there, I mean, it depends, I guess, on your personality, the type of lawyer you are, but yeah, it sounds like you’re a very personable person, so, you know, you get out there and you talk to people and you network and you have all this years’ experience of networking. Yeah. It helps us so much easier when you’re a law student and you know, someone like this so that you can just, yeah, Hey, can I at least do an informational interview, right. With this judge or with whatever this area of law, do you know anyone in this area of law? And that’s been one of the best things about LinkedIn is being able to connect pre law students and law students with lawyers. I know. And just, you know, some of them I knew before LinkedIn, some of them, I met through LinkedIn, but it’s like, Hey, I know someone who does that or used to do that. Let me connect you and yeah. Ask them questions. So you actually know what it’s like.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Right. And I, and I think, I mean, I, I did a lot of this when I was working at a law firm, I would sort of take the time to, to mentor junior associates, which I, you know, I wish I had had more of in my days I had some mentors, but I, because I’ve just always done that I feel very, it’s feels very natural to me. And also just having three daughters and going through the whole process, one of whom is applying to law school for next year. I’m very in the trenches with what people that age or whatever age you are that stage of pre law are thinking about. And I can, I think it’s always nice to hear other experiences or stories. I know that from talking to people even, or even seeing what people post in on Facebook or in chats, everyone’s like, Hey, I got this score. What do you think? Should I take it again? And there’s just, it’s obviously nice to have other people give you say, well, this is what I did, because then you can think about that and factor it in to how you’re going about what you’re doing. And because I sorta one of those people that I can’t sleep past about four 30 in the morning and I got up quietly, we husband’s still sleeping. And then I’m just online. I read and absorb a tremendous amount of information. So it’s a ready source of help for people.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Yeah. I think it’s really helpful too. I kind of mentioned this earlier, but again, having someone with that advice from the tail end, because I have certainly seen tips on Instagram that make me cringe a little bit because it’s like, Hey I’m a one L and here’s my advice. And it’s like, okay, that’s great. But I don’t think you understand the long-term repercussions of that little piece of advice you gave us, not the worst advice ever, but it could lead people astray because you’re not understanding where that goes.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
And I think it’s also people are, I mean, assuming that this person isn’t trying to lead you astray in competitive competitive school and doing it in a big scale on Instagram, but I think that seeing the longer picture and what the different options one will have different stages in terms of how important you want to make grades. Because for some people, they may have aspirations that are extraordinary, but it’s not something going to a big firm where they have to get A’s. And for them, it’s actually a lot more important to get involved in student organizations and do things. And then for other people who really their main goal is getting as many A’s as possible and trying to make law review, they’re going to have a different focus. And I think it’s really important having spanned my career and done different things, to be able to, to bring that experience to bear and making choices, because everyone is different and there’s really no one size fits all.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
There’s some things that really apply to everyone, but most of the time, it really depends on the person and also just the personality and temperament of the person and what makes sense for them. And that’s what I think is really important just to spend time getting to know the people that I’m helping, because the more I know about them, the more able I am to tailor my advice and to give them different perspectives on things. And also when I’m trying to teach concepts or writing different people learn different ways. Some people need to talk through it. Some people need to read it and write it themselves, or see pictures or diagrams. And until you really understand someone and how they’re they sort of work and learn it’s harder to be as helpful. So I try to invest a lot of time at the beginning, really getting to know people and that
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Great. And what you’re saying is absolutely true. It’s I, my grades were all over the place, but my involvement, the classes I took, just the electives, I took, made a big difference on the internships and jobs I got, you know, because it showed an interest in this thing. And so, okay. She must be interested in this. If she’s taking classes, you know, that are kind of these like finite classes, these little small electives and things like that. So,
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Yeah. And, and no, and that’s, that’s excellent advice. So good job. But I would say being someone who used to interview a lot of associates at big law firms and, and who’s married to someone who’s a managing partner at a firm. So I hear from his perspective, what he sees and what he wants. I know that when I have a candidate, regardless of their grades, if they are really passionate about something, I’m more likely to get behind them and try to go the extra mile. And somebody who tells me, well, I like tax law, but I like employment law. And I could also see myself doing criminal law. So I’m really open for everything. And even though that’s wonderful from when you’re talking to employers, it’s not going to get people as excited. And if you actually spend time writing a paper about something or being really involved in an organization or done an unpaid internship it’s going to make all the difference in the world.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
And those are little things that wouldn’t, you wouldn’t know at pre-law. I mean, until you’re, you know, 30 years past it, or so, or 25 or 25 fifth year reunion coming up this weekend. So but started, I started, I guess, law school 28 years ago. So I’ve certainly been through at all. And I also worked in house counsel for two years, and that was another whole perspective on sort of the business world of law and how people in house and business people react to lawyers. And what is it, what are good and not so good ways to sort of bridge that gap and be effective. So if there’s a world of stuff out there, but I love to share it.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Yeah, that’s great. No, this is definitely stuff that pre-loss students, you guys need to listen and you need to hear, because it is, it’s so important. I think so many students just feel you know, that imposter syndrome sinks in because they feel like they have to be everything. They have to be top of the class, you know, so that they have, you know, options and it’s like, okay, but it’s, again, like you said more about the different choices you make than just the grades. Grades are great, but Hey, if you don’t have them, there’s other things or rank, same thing, they feel like they have to have that rank. And it’s like, not necessarily
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Then for those who, who do want to do that. I mean, I was someone that I, that was my number one goal, and I really had tunnel vision. And I, you know, fortunately was very successful, but making choices because yes, it’s great. I have all these options about all these different firms that I could go to. And I’m sure people, you know, my peers are at me because I don’t have as many options, but that’s okay if that’s equally as valid. And I was really stressed about, well, how do I decide what kind of firm and do I want to go to a firm or I’m not going to be miserable? And what is in-house and what is public interest in? What are the choices? So because it, Austin at law schools, even though they will talk about public interest in all this stuff when they’re trying to get you to come to their law school, the first thing that happens in terms of jobs is this thing called OCI on campus interviews, where all of a sudden, everyone throws anything good out the window.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
And all they want to do is go make money and be it at a big law firm, which is absolutely not the right thing for so many people. But if it is the right thing for you, then there’s another entire category of choices that you have to think through. So there’s, as I said, there’s really no one size fits all. And I think that it’s really important to be able to see the full spectrum of, of all the different choices and to, and to also talk to second years and third years, who have I worked with before, who now are in positions where they’ve just been through it and they’re very willing to help and give back and by connecting people you know, it might be easier to hear it from a to L who just went through OCI and had doesn’t have a job for the summer then, then to hear it from me. And so I try to make sure people are connected with the right people that can be, can answer questions as, as, as fittingly as possible and as effectively as possible for them.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
That’s wonderful. Awesome. Okay. So Amanda, if somebody wants to work with you or if they even just want to follow you on social media so they can learn more about you, where can they find you or
Speaker 2 (25:23):
So LinkedIn is where I would recommend because that’s really the platform for law for a lot of businesses, but lawyers seem that seems to be the place. And so I’m on LinkedIn. CUNA look me up. There’s no one else so far with my name, there’s someone whose maiden name was Haverstick, but it’s not that she’s a reporter in California, but she, she doesn’t go by it anymore. So I’m very easy to find my, and I’m also on Facebook, so you can look me up and see pictures of my kids and stuff like that. So I’m just in our own person, but I try to be a little more professional on LinkedIn, but
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate you coming on here and sharing all your wisdom.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Well, thank you so much for having me enjoyed it. And I look forward to talking to you more in the future.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Before we get into my top takeaways, a quick word from our sponsor. Juno, if you have to take out student loans, check in with Juno first, do you know, can often offer law students one to 2% lower interest rates than the federal government and with no origination fees and oftentimes cash back as well. Visit advisor.legal learning center.com forward slash Juno. For more information, my top takeaways from chat with Amanda, number one, undergrad writing versus law school, writing lawyer writing the main difference is creativity versus conciseness, but it really is a totally different skill that sometimes you just need a little help with number two, the term law school coach. There’s no exact definition. And with Amanda, it’s helped with writing, venting and preparing for just about anything that you might need. I think the key here is if you’re looking for someone to help you through your first year of law school, really ask them what’s involved what they do because not everyone does what Amanda does and maybe there’s things Amanda doesn’t do that. Somebody else does. You got to find the right fit for you. All the tips links and so forth will be in the show notes. I’ve included Amanda’s email as well. If you learn something today, if you liked the show, please leave a review. It helps the show help more people. Thanks.
