Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the legal learning podcast. I’m your host Jolene. And with the legal learning center, I help prospective law students save $300,000 almost school to receive three money saving strategies today. Visit legal learning center.com for slash money. Today, we’re joined by Sam and Daniel co-founders of Paulo, Elsa test prep. We’re going to cover all the things you need to know to study for the LSAT, like for how long should I study and why should I invest in a test prep company? So stay tipped.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Sure. so I’m Daniel Rittenberg. I’m from the San Francisco bay area. Palo Alto specifically. I went to school at the college of William and Mary in Virginia. I got a degree in finance and computer science. I got a 1 77 on my outset and I’m one of the co-founders of all the test prep. Hey guys. My name is Sam. I’m also from the bay area from a town called Redwood city, California. I graduated from Cornell university where I studied government history. And I’ll be starting in two years at Harvard for law school. And in the interim I’m working as one of the co-founders of the politic test prep along with Daniel after getting the 1 79 a miles.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Wow. Okay. I’m so excited. You guys are my first L company to be on this podcast. It’s long overdue and yeah, after talking to you Sam, the other day, I’m just so excited to get into this. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Really inviting us really excited.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Yeah. Yes. All right. So let’s first start out with what makes your company different than other test prep companies?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Yeah, so Apollo we’re a boutique company and we really focus on building people’s skills. That’s really the emphasis of what we, what we do, because we believe that the LSAT it’s a very difficult test, like without question. But we really found when you’re Daniel, I were talking about starting the company and sort of what we wanted to focus on. We both realized that we had very similar approaches to the test and that we realized that even though it’s very difficult, it’s actually not that complicated. The test is very, very simple because of a basic premise that it’s a law school admissions test, right? This is the test to get you into law school. And so it’s going to test the skills that you’re going to need to use as a lawyer, which when you really boil it down, it’s just, how do you understand and manipulate arguments.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
That’s pretty much it on this side. And so when you want to actually improve at this test, will you have to do is think about what are the skills that go into understanding arguments, manipulating arguments, and get really, really, really good at those skills. And once you build up that foundation, then every question is going to feel trivial after that. So we basically created a framework where we focus on the three main skills of the test, which are finding assumptions in arguments, breaking down a formal logic and doing, I think called descriptive analysis, which is basically looking at specific patterns of argumentation, looking for the general logical pattern in between. And we really believe that if you can just get really good at those three things, then you can master the entire test. The analogy that we often use when we’re trying to describe it, what is it like the study for the LSAT?
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Why is a skills-based framework really useful is it’s sort of like learning how to play an instrument. Most people think the L sets in class and you have to cram knowledge into your head, but it’s to kind of test you, couldn’t cram for it. So when you think about how to get good at the guitar, for example, you really don’t have to know that many things. You have to understand how to play the chords, how to kind of hold the strings and maybe a few scales here and there. And that’s pretty much it, but the step from conceptual knowledge to actually be able to perform in front of a thousand people at a concert is a very big gap. And that’s really just about discipline practice and building your skills. And there really wasn’t too much of a focus on that. And most of the test prep companies out there. And so we really built a whole program in a framework about helping students build their skills from the ground up.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
And so do they do that with a class or with one-on-one tutoring with you guys?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
So we do exclusively one-on-one tutoring. We really like to call it more coaching because I think the model is we really believe the goal of every hour you spend with a coach or a tutor. You’re not really going to get better by sitting in front of someone and watching them do it. It’s one of the reasons why we really think that very popular live course model. It’s just really not an effective way to study because, you know, if you want to get good at playing the guitar, you’re not going to sit on your computer and watch somebody else play the guitar. It’s not going to actually make you a better guitar player. But what you would do if you want to get better at the guitar is you’d hire a guitar teacher. Right. and so the point of a guitar teacher or an ALSAC coach is to really help you learn the skills for yourself.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
And so every hour you’re with the coach is dedicated to how can you go and actually integrate the skills and how you think about things. And so, you know, for every hour you were the coach, you have about 10 to 15 hours of lessons, drills, and practice problems and exercises. And the goal was really to get all the benefits of something like a self study, where you’re really drilling and improving and building, you know, your own skills, but with guidance and a curriculum, you sort of say, you do the drilling, we take care of everything else. And that sort of hybrid model really tends to be successful because it’s tailored around the nature of the test. Yeah. Yeah. And one of the big things that we thought about initially and starting the company was you know, what, what are the things that only a real person can provide what I want, right.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
What exactly are people paying for when they get a one-on-one coach? And we realized, you know, with the amount of videos books out there it’s not just to have someone explain something to you, although that’s obviously part of the role to coach. But we kinda actually boiled down to really three main things that, you know, having a, an expert in front of you is really, really good for it. So the first is accountability, right? Having somebody who’s going to kind of stay on top of you week to week, make sure you’re doing the work provide motivation, you know, be a mentor. The second thing is analysis. So to look at, you know, take everything that they know about the test, and then look at how you’re doing, look at the questions you’re missing and be able to come up with a really, really targeted plan and understanding of what exactly you need to work on.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Something that you just can’t get with a video course book, any of that. And the final thing is just to explain things in a way that makes sense to you, right? To have someone who is not just seeing it for the first time and trying to explain a concept the way they would explain it to anyone else. But someone who really understands the student has built a deep, personal relationship with them and knows how they best absorb concepts. And I think those three things really kind of get to the heart of, of what’s unique about a one-on-one coach and the kinds of things we really try to emphasize and, and provide value with when we work with students as well.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Okay. I’m really excited by that answer because there’s a couple of things I wanted to dig deeper into. First of all, is yeah. One of the things I see most in my Facebook group, as well as other L sat or pre-law Facebook groups is, Hey, I need an accountability buddy. And so you touched on that point that you guys provide the accountability. So how do you do that?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
So I think the number one way is just having a set plan. The biggest pitfall people fall into when you’re self studying and there’s really two main problems. One of them is this accountability issue, which is, it takes a long time to study for the LSS. So we’re sitting here in June, let’s say I’m planning to get the L set in November. It’s so easy to be like, oh, my test is in November. Why do I have to sit down and study now? Right. And so it’s very easy to just kind of prioritize other things when it’s a very long-term project. I think that’s the case for anything, but the real difficulty comes in when you add that second layer of challenge, which is when you’re studying on your own, it’s not just like you, you are procrastinating like, oh, I have this big assignment due in a week and I want to do something else.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
It’s not just, you have to sit down and do the work you have to figure out, okay, what am I going to do? Why am I going to do it? How am I going to do it? Is it even going to help me, didn’t even get to work. And so when you add those six, like layers of extra things on top of actually sitting down and doing the work, you could spend 10 hours just figuring out what book you’re going to read. And, you know, you could also spend two months, you know, doing strengthening questions a certain way only to realize that it was wrong the entire time. You’ve just wasted two months of your study. And so as far as accountability, having a framework, a plan, and someone to guide you through it and doing so with the confidence that you’re working, one with an expert in what they’re doing, who’s going along a framework that’s proven, right?
Speaker 2 (08:32):
All you have to do is sit down and drill, right? It’s all taken care of. Do you know exactly what you’re going to do? You know exactly why you’re doing it because working with a coach, you also know that you’re going to be doing it properly. And so all of the biggest obstacles to actually sitting down and working are completely eliminated when you’re working through that guided framework. So I really think that this hybrid bodily corrects all of those biggest challenges of a self study, even in a way that an accountability buddy would, because it’s nice to have someone to be like, yeah, you can study, you can achieve your goals, but those obstacles are still going to be there and having those taken care of, and it’s really amazing how much that can change your ability to sit down and just get the
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Work done. That makes
Speaker 1 (09:13):
So much sense, because I know I’ve seen students, they jumped from one set of books to another set of books and they, you know, yeah. They don’t even know what their own study style is. And from what you’re saying, here we take care of one. Yeah. How, w what do you focus on what you should you be doing in when that sounds fantastic. Now, as far as you said that you guys focus on yeah. What they need. So how do you guys figure out what somebody really needs?
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Sure. Yeah. So, I mean, the first thing we always do with, with students, we always start with a diagnostic tests. So it’s kind of a one-off session. They’ll take a full practice test, and then they’ll sit down with a coach. Who’s going to really go through their approach to the test and come up with a plan based on that for the things they need to work on. And I think the real value there is in providing a deeper analysis than what someone can get who doesn’t really have any sort of experience with the outside, because I think anyone can sit down, take a test and see, oh, look, I missed 15 questions in logical reasoning. I missed 10 questions on logic games. I missed 10 reading comprehension questions. Right. but that itself is not going to give you much more information than, oh, I need to work on logical reasoning, which itself has, you know, a whole kind of universe of sub skills within it.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Right. so that’s one thing we put a lot of emphasis on with coaches is we’re, you know, you’re, you have a certain amount of expertise. And so you can use that expertise to give much deeper insights than just you’re missing this kind of question. Right. We can you know, talking about those core skills that Sam talked about it’s about tying back, you know, a lot of different question types different section on the tests to those core skills and saying, you know, not just, oh, you struggle with strengthening questions. Oh, you struggle with weakening questions, but looking kind of, you know, beneath that and seeing the, the common thread between them, which is, oh, you struggle with finding assumptions in this kind of argument, right. You struggle with diagramming form of logic for this kind of argument. And I think that kind of analysis can, can give you a much better platform for which to build a genuinely customized plan that really targets the things an actual person needs to work on.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Yeah. I know your tutors
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Tend to have a median score of 1 77. I saw that on your website. So if I’m a student that has something like right now, I’m somewhere on like the one forties, am I going to be able to relate to that tutor? Are they going to be able to speak my language? Oh,
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Absolutely. I mean, just to, first of all, we work with all kinds of students, but, you know, we just had a student who started, came in at a 1 47 for the diagnostic in three months, she was already on the tool one 70. Right. And so our, our, our framework really, to people at all skill levels, because, you know, part of the, part of the concept that the Ellis that is difficult, but not complicated is that anybody can master it right. If someone’s comes in and they have a background in logic or philosophy, they might be starting at a higher place, but the skills are all self-contained. So someone who scoring in the one forties, it’s not different skills, it’s just, they have less exposure to the same skills and they just really need to understand the framework and build it up. And our coaches, I mean, one thing I’ll say about them is it’s a prerequisite to work with us to have a very, very high sport, right.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
To a proven mastery at, you know, the, at the highest levels. But that, you know, you L set language, that’s a necessary condition, but it’s not a sufficient condition. Our, our acceptance rate for coaches who want to work with us is only about 50. We only accept about 15% of applicants. And all those applicants have over one 70, cause we have a pretty meticulous interview and hiring process that we make sure that it’s not that you, Geoff, that you proved you can accomplish that the highest levels is you can actually relate to students and you can actually convey that information in a way that’s effective. And you can build relationships with people and help them grow. And really no two students are like, which is why we have, you know, right now we have 13 wonderful coaches with different personalities and interests and abilities to relate to different kinds of students.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
And many of our coaches also started their themselves. One of our coaches started in the low one forties and work up to the one 70. And so we have many coaches who have been through that journey themselves, who are able to relate and emphasize with the student, not just in terms of helping them do better on the test, but you know, what, if you should take a break from studying them now, how do I arrange my schedule? How do I figure out, you know, really how to do this? And they become a friend throughout the process and you know, that someone who can be both expert, mentor, friends throughout the process together can really fit to any student at any level. And we’ve seen success both with high achieving students who really just need to make a few tweaks and students who come in with absolutely no background, no experience start low and work their way up.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Yeah. And another thing I’ll say about that is that, you know, even, even if we find someone who’s a perfect match for a student, who’s been through a very, very similar process as the one that that student has ahead of them. Something that I think is also really great about us and kind of sets us apart from people who, you know, let’s say kind of one-off tutors, individual tutors, is that whenever you have an Apollo coach, you also have the entire kind of Apollo brain trust working with you as well. So if, if a coach has an issue where, you know, there’s a student and it’s like, you know, I, they have a specific issue, one that I don’t have enough experience with yet. We have you know, a lot of meetings, group chats, collaboration constantly where a coach can pose that question and then get answers from the 12 other coaches almost immediately. So there’s, there’s really very few situations that we don’t have covered for different students because we have just such a diverse team. You know, they have so many different experiences, so many different outside experiences. So there’s, there’s really you kind of cover the full spectrum of what a student might need.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Nice now for two different timelines so far. So I heard Sam, you mentioned something about like kind of a six months study plan, and then you mentioned that one student who just kind of shot through the roof after three months. So what’s your generally recommended timeframe for studying for the LSAT?
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Sure. Yeah. So I think it’s hard to say a, you know, number of weeks or a number of months, that’s not really the timeline that we go off of. We say that generally, if you’re trying to really get everything out of the process, you possibly can, you should shoot for about 250 to 300 hours of studying and drilling. And so that doesn’t have, you know, it doesn’t carry with it a specific number of months, right? Because everybody’s schedule is different. Some people are way more busy, some people are way less busy. So, but once you can kind of build off of that, once you can say, you know, I need to get 300 hours of studying done. Here’s how many hours I have per week from there. Then you can kind of extrapolate and create a number of weeks plans. So it really does vary.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Some people get it done in three months, four months of some people take a little bit longer year, more than a year. It really does depend on the student and kind of their schedule. I, one thing I will say about that is I think it’s incredibly common across the test prep industry, especially when you look at some of these live courses to kind of undersell how long they’ll set takes. You know, you’ll have people sign up for these El side bootcamps, right. And they’re like a month long, two months long. And that’s just, that’s just not enough time for, for the vast majority of people. I mean, unless you’re exclusively doing L set and not sleeping or eating anymore, you’re not going to get it done in a month or two months. So, and I think that kind of comes down to the fact that you know, their main product is the hours that they’re selling someone to be in the class.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Right. and ultimately if you make it longer than a month or two, it kind of becomes prohibitively expensive for that reason. And so we say is, we’re actually trying to sell you as few hours of coaching as possible, right? Because the point of the coaching is not just to have someone talk at you for X number of hours it’s to empower you and to give you the tools to be much more efficient and effective in your drilling time. And so, yeah, we, we, we definitely try to push back as much as possible against this idea that, you know, a month or two, it’s going to be enough for most people it’s not, and that’s totally fine. But if you have a really solid plan and if you know exactly what you’re doing week to week you can be very, very effective, very, very linear in your progress over the course of, you know, three, four or five months. And that’s usually much more effective for most people.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Now. I know, obviously everybody wants to get the highest score that they can. But let’s just say, I want to go to a local school. There’s only one school around here that Elsa requirements aren’t that high. I can do it. Is there a purpose for trying to get a higher El sat score? If I already know, I can pretty much just get into that school without
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Question. I think this is like the most important thing to know about the L set that no matter what school you want to go to, no matter what your goals are, every point on the L set is worth tens of thousands of dollars, right? And that’s really not an understatement. And so let’s say, you know, you wanna go to a school and the median L sat score is a 1 55, right? And you’re sitting there with a 1 56. You, you have a good shot to get in that school. No question. If you bumped that 1 56 up to a one 60, maybe a 1 62, not only will you get into that school, they will pay you a lot of money to go there. And that’s true, whether you’re talking about, you know, top a hundred, top 50, top 25 and the T4 team, no matter what your goals are, no matter where you fall scoring higher in the LSI will get you money to a school.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
This is something that I tell people and they never believe me, and they think I’m making it up and trying to sell things. But, you know, when you, I literally, when you think about the amount of scholarship money that was offered, you can get paid $1,000 per hour or more to study for this test. That’s not an exaggeration, it’s not hyperbole. It’s, it’s really the truth. That’s more than big law lawyers at big law firms make right to study for the Elsa. And the reason is let’s just say you follow our recommended timeline, right? 250 to 300 hours of studying you put in that much work. And you do really, really well on the L set. You get a full ride scholarship to a law school of your choice that will ride scholarship over the course of three years, just in terms of the tuition alone.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
That’s not even including stipends room and board can be worth $200,000. When you throw in stipends, which many of these come in, it can be worth anywhere from 200 to $300,000 alone, just in terms of the money. You’re literally getting paid, not to mention the money that you’re going to save. Like we trust not to mention the money that you’re going to save by going to a good law school and getting a high paying job versus going to a worst law school. And so it’s not even that you’re going to get paid a thousand dollars per hour. It’s, you’re going to get paid at least a thousand dollars per hour, and probably even more when you consider net earnings over time. And so it’s really the worst kept secret in law school that nobody pays full tuition for law school. But nobody really considers that when they’re studying for the L side.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
And so there’s, I truly believe that it’s really not just because I run an outside company. I honestly believe that at this stage in people’s careers, there’s really very, very, very few things that you could do. That’s going to be a better investment of your time and of your money then working to improve your L sat score because no matter where you want to apply, no matter what your score is you will get money to go somewhere. A lot of it, and the more higher score is the more money you’re going to get and the better schools you’re going to get money for it.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
I like that direct correlation. That just makes it more concrete. I know that when we see these offers come in, you know, especially on Instagram, right. Everyone shares on Instagram, I got all these money offers and it just, it seems so vague. It just seems like, okay, well, I’ve got a score. That’s good enough. I think I’m done now. You know, that kind of thing. And especially for, I think students who maybe haven’t invested very much in the L sat prep, they just think, okay, well, I can get in now, or I’m going to get maybe some money and that’s good. And you brought up a really good point, which is the interests, you know, and I just did a whole speech on this and everything. The interest can sometimes be like half as much, or even more than what you’re taking out. So you take out 150,000, you could be paying 75,000 in interest. And people don’t realize that because they don’t talk about it a lot. So when you’re getting a full ride, that’s not just 150,000. If that’s your tuition there, it’s also that 75,000 Oregon, maybe more and again, a lot of schools cost even more than that. 150. So it’s exponentially worth it. It sounds like, especially if you’ve got that direct correlation, that just helps it make sense.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Yeah. And just to sort of expand on that a little bit, people are sort of like, oh, it’s like a mystery. Like how do people even get scholarships? And it’s, it’s not a mystery. It’s actually pretty clearly laid out. First of all, there’s a resource that people should, I recommend highly playing with it. It’s the Ellis demons, scholarship predictor. Maybe we can link to it in the show notes or something, but you can literally, you can put in what your GPA, what’s your outset, how much money are you likely to receive per year at every law school? And you can change, you can try, I’m going to get 500 points on the outset, how much more money will that get me? And it’s, it’s astonishing when you play around with it. But there’s two main, the, the biggest reason why this correlation exists is for better or for worse, it has a lot to do with the us news rankings.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
And this is not because, you know, I think anyone should really shop around for law school based on what their ranking is there plenty of better reasons to go to law school than the U S news ranking. But if you think about it from the perspective of an admissions committee, right, what do they care about? What does the Dean of the school care about? And in the law school world, on the backend, us news rankings really is everything, right? It determines things like, you know, how likely are alumni to contribute money to this school, right? What is the view of the school, maybe in the eyes of the biggest law firms or of, you know, the legal, the light industry is very small people talk, right? So what’s the reputation, you know, how are however much money are they going to get from the university, all these things that the institution cares about and comes from the U S news rankings and the biggest factor in the us news rankings that the admitted students can influence.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Right? So if I’m applying to law school, like what can I do to affect the ranking at the school and applying to by far, in a way it’s, you’re outside, it’s like 15, it’s around 15% of the ranking from the student’s point of view is your LSI. So just to talk about numbers, right? Law school classes are small, there’s 200 people or so in the average law school class size. So if the median Ellis sat score, just to give some concrete examples, the number two ranked score in the country right now is this Stanford. And they have a meeting Ellis at score of 1 71. This might be data from last year, so I’m not positive on the current numbers, but the number 17 ranked school last year, at least was Washington St. Louis. And there may be an L sat score was a 1 69. That’s two points, two point difference in median L sat score between number two and number 17.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
And that makes a massive difference, right? If wash U could bump their all sat score up by a single point, they might catapult themselves in the T 14, which would dramatically change how wash U is perceived. UCLA just did that bumped over Georgetown. And there was a whole big thing about it. And so from Washington’s perspective, if you have a score of like a 1 73, for example, you’re going to get into schools like Stanford and Harvard and NYU and Chicago and all these top schools. And there’s no reason if you get into those schools to go to quash you, but if you go to wash U you have the potential because the class sizes are so small to be the difference maker that makes that bump. And so when you think about what that worth to wash U, is it $150,000 as a drop in the bucket compared to what the value you can give them by going to their school with a higher score.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
And so really if you’re above the 75th percentile, that why is it a school that’s when they’re going to throw money at you almost formulaically. And it’s really for these reasons. And so, because every person can make a huge difference. Every point in the rankings makes a huge difference. It, it seems like so much money, but it’s chump change in the school. It’s compared to the value. You can provide them and recognizing that, you know, everyone’s perspective is so shifted like, oh, please accept me. Like, I really need to go to your school. It’s like, no, the schools really need you to go there and you want to come into it, that mindset and recognize the value you can provide, because that’s really how you get the most out of this process.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Yeah. You’re so right. We look at it as though you’re baking, you’re knocking on their door, please let me in, you know, and please, by the way, would you mind give me a few dollars too? That’d be really nice. And yeah. It’s, if you can play that strategically and I agree, rank is not everything there’s so much more, that should be going into those decisions. And if you could look at something like what you just said, where it’s like, yeah, you could a lot of money go to a great school. That again, if you’re helping them rise, you know, in a few years they might be yeah. A T 14. And then even though you didn’t go to a T 14, you went to a T 14, you know, I mean, I’ve, I’ve seen it with my college not with my law school. My law school I think has gone down. Oh, well, moving on. So we just don’t talk about that anymore, but yeah, my, my college keeps going up and up and it’s like, yeah, I went to that brilliant college. Yes. It was amazing when I went there. Yeah. But all right. So this question is for Daniel, Daniel, do you see mistakes that students are making that you just wish they would stop making?
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Yes, absolutely. Let me think. I mean, there’s definitely a few different ones. I think the first one that comes to mind is, and this is one, so I’ll, I’ll say this is one that I made personally. I think that’s why it comes to mind is putting too much stock in that first diagnostic or those first few tests that you take. So I can tell you that when I took my first outset I did really, really poorly on logic game section. I missed, I think, 20 out of 23 questions on there. And I was just, I was, I was devastated because I had these big plans. I was gonna get this great score and go to this great law school and then share I was missing pretty much every question on one of the sections. And that to me initially was a really big stumbling block and it affected my studies for, you know, multiple months where I was just so discouraged by what I thought was a really, really terrible outcome.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
And so I think a big thing that I always tell students who are just starting out people who maybe just took a test and also did really poorly. One of the sections is to kind of trust yourself in the process a little bit know that, you know, especially the logic game section for one that’s a section that very few people are going to go into a hundred percent confident on. It’s, it’s very strange. It’s something that most people have just no experience with at all. And so to expect yourself to be able to ACE that on the first try is just unrealistic. And I think a lot of people, especially people who come into it who maybe got really great scores on the sat, the act and they think, okay, well, this should be just like that.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
You know, I’ll do great on my first try here. And the, the Alsace is really not like that. So it’s, it’s a very, very learnable test. That’s kind of the good news of that. And so I think it, you know, there’s, there’s a very, is a very clear formula there. And I think people kind of try to find shortcuts through it. But the formulas really learn how to do it, right. And this is double true for logic games, you know, learn the strategies, become comfortable with the tests, become familiar with the different types of questions and then just practice the right way over and over again. And you’re gonna start to see results. And so I think that’s kinda my biggest advice for people who, who are maybe just starting out is don’t let yourself get really discouraged by a poor showing in one of the sections. Just to know, it’s a very learnable test and as long as you’re approaching it the right way, and as long as you’re putting in that work and, and drilling it the right way and being organized and focused in the way you’re studying, I think the the work to score graph, you know, the amount of work you put in versus your score increase is very, very linear over time. So I think that’s kind of the biggest, the biggest thing I would, I would tell new students.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Good to know. Do you have anything to add to that, Sam?
Speaker 2 (30:14):
I mean, I think that’s really common. I think the other one is just, and I know we’ve talked about this a little bit, but just underestimating how much work this takes. I mean the biggest, like the worst mistake I ever it’s my biggest pet peeve is like, people will come to us in February and they’ll be like, I want to apply to law school. I want to start in the fall. I’m starting to take the L sat, like tell me, like help me do it. And I’m like, I would love to help you, but I really would encourage this person to take another year. Because, you know, when you think about how do you plan out this timeline? The first thing is you have to remember, it’s so much better, more advantageous to apply early law schools. Rolling admissions is open from September to April, but if you apply in September, you have a huge advantage in the process because you’re applying for more spots with less people.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
And so, you know, if you want to really apply by September, you want to shoot to have the test done by June at the latest, because then you have the opportunity to retake it in August or October, if you need to, and spend two months working on your applications and get that application in early. And so if you want to think about, okay, how long should I start studying to get it in June? You know, realistically, you know, you should be studying for most people anywhere from four to eight months in advance of June, which is about a year before you want to apply is when you really want to begin the process. Ideally. And people just think, oh, I’ll wait till the summer. Like, I’ll just kind of, you know, spend two months do the outside and it’ll all be okay. And then they have to brush and procrastinate everything at the end.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
And the biggest advice I can give people is plan ahead and start early. You could always adjust things if you start early, but rushing at the last minute, it’s just really the biggest mistake. And, you know, that’s, that’s one of the things that I think I really would encourage people to, to work on in advanced is just figure out a good timeline. You give yourself room to be flexible, so important this test. Yeah. And actually, so I have, I have one more to kind of add on top of that. I think it ties together some of the things we talked about I think another big mistake that kind of is related to that is just underestimating the importance of the offset and you know, just how much, how much of an investment it is. You know, I’ll talk to someone and just let’s say a friend, right.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
And I’ll recommend a certain book to them. Like, oh, I don’t, I don’t want that book. It’s too expensive. It’s 35 bucks. I can get it for, you know, I’ll wait and see if the price goes down. Right. and same with, with time too, people are thinking you know, I’m too busy with X, Y and Z. I think I’ll just cut back on Alsace, study time and hope for the best. And so, you know, like Sam talked about the LSF really for 99% of people, unless you have a position lined up a CEO somewhere, it’s going to be the biggest return on investment that you’re going to get barred bar, nothing else that you’re really working on. You know, it’s even though it is a lot of work, right, it’s 250, 2 5300 hours, it’s a lot of work. Sometimes it can be expensive, right. Paying for prep, paying for all the registration fees. But at the end of the day, the, the return on that investment is actually higher than pretty much anything else out there. So it’s, it seems like a lot up front. But it’s also, you know, the slightly delayed payoff there is absolutely enormous.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Yeah. We had an admissions person on a few months ago now I think, and I mean, she said, it’s basically a third of your applications. So, you know, when something stands out that strongly on your application, it’s, it’s important. You got to do, especially, it’s a one, it’s not exactly a one shot, but it’s kind of a one shot deal. Right. You want to get that test done and over with, you want to know what your score is so that you know, where you’re landing and yeah. Hopefully in one shot or two shots, not five shots, you know, let’s get it done. So, yeah, it’s it’s important. Do it right. And try to do it as few times as possible, at least in my mind, so. Sure,
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Sure. Yeah, go ahead. I was just thinking you know, it’s a third degree application, but if you’re at the point where you’re applying, chances are the other two thirds are mostly set in stone at that point, right? Your GPA is probably not gonna change too much. Right. your personal statement, I mean, so you can definitely work on that. But your resume is probably not going to change all that much. Right. Your recommendations are probably not gonna change all that much. So, you know, if you’re set on applying to law school, that’s where your energy is really should be on this massive, massive part of the application that you really have total control over more than pretty much anything else.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
Yeah. And especially, it sounds like this is really where the money is too.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Oh yeah. The money, the money really comes down to a numbers game. And I think just, just one more note about like the idea of the investment, right? Not only are you going to get a higher return than any other kind of investment you could make, you’re also investing in yourself, right? You’re, you’re not just investing in some stocks, just letting it and hoping for a gamble, like you’re totally control of your destiny. And that can be empowering that not only do you have that option to return, but you have the chance to succeed and overcome obstacles. And what you’re putting is you’re putting that fake in that best you succeed when you put all the things together, it becomes, I think even though it’s frustrating at times when you look back on and most people find actually a very rewarding experience and an opportunity for growth, it just comes down to having the right perspective.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Definitely. All right, guys, this has been really helpful. I’m really excited. I love what I’m hearing and I love the hardcore facts that you gave out because I think for a lot of us, we’re very logic based, you know, in our minds and hearing that dollar for dollar, that our, for dollar kind of logic, I think just really helps cement it in and helps us get over that barrier of, yeah. Should I be investing in this? Should I be investing again in myself? And it sounds like the answer is yes. So yes. If they want to work with you guys, where can they find you?
Speaker 2 (36:10):
Yeah. A couple of different places. So we have our website www dot Apollo, test prep.com. You can learn a lot more about us. You can meet some of the coaches. We have a blog, we have a lot of information and you can contact us on there as well. You can also email us. So the email address is contact@apollotestprep.com. We’re also on Instagram at, at Apollo L set. I think that’s it in terms of social media for now, but we’re going to be branching out more soon, hopefully.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
All right. Sounds good. Thanks so much for joining me guys. Yeah. Thank you. Great talking to you before we get into my top takeaways, a quick word from our sponsor. Juno, if you have to take out student loans, check in with Juno. First, Juno can often offer law students one to 2% lower interest rates than the federal government and with no origination fees and oftentimes cash back as well. Visit advisor.legal learning center.com forward slash Juneau. For more information, my top takeaways from our chat with Sam and Daniel. Number one, the alpha is really just a test of lawyer skills. Number one, breaking down logical arguments, number two, descriptive analysis and arguments and three finding assumptions. Number two, you need somewhere between 250 or 300 hours of study time to do well on the test. Number three, each point on the Alside is worth thousands. So it’s worth it to really invest in study. Number four, if you are working with Apollo test prep for each hour of study, there’s about 15 hours of homework. So they really try to maximize your dollars. It’s all about accountability and analysis with them. And that’s it. For this episode, all the tips and links will be in the show notes. A full transcript will be available@legallearningcenter.com forward slash Apollo. And if you enjoyed this episode of you learned something today, please leave a review that just helps the show help more people. Thanks.
