Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to the legal learning podcast. I’m your host Jolene. And with the legal learning center, I help prospective law students save time, money, and stress on their legal journey. This month, the pre law survival guide a book by the legal learning center by yours truly is available on Amazon. So go ahead and check it out. This is a book to help us and Canadian pre-loss students consider whether law school’s right for them, what they should be doing. Do they need help? And if so, where to get it, how to again, save time, money and stress on their legal journey. This is the type of book that you will be referencing for years. And even if you’re in law school, there is plenty to help you out. So go ahead, go on over to Amazon and check it out. And it will be linked up in the show notes as well.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Now, today we are joined by Elena Doris Alaina helps women leave big law. Now I know you might think, why do I even need to hear this? If I am still looking to join law, it’s really good to know what’s on the other end so that you can try to avoid some of the pitfalls, some of the strategies and tips that Elena shares are things that you should really be doing before you ever go to law school. And that includes if you are male. So do not worry because you are a male interest in going into law. There is plenty for you here. Just take this information and use it now so that maybe you don’t mean to use it later, but if you deal, Alaina’s there for you,
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Darlene. Thanks so much for having me. My name is Elena Deutsch. I’m the founder of will, w I L L. And that stands for women interested in leaving. And then the word big is in parentheses and a lowercase B big law, but it’s really women interested in leaving law. Cause I help women lawyers of all kinds in house government. They’ve already left the law, but I help them figure out what is they really want to do with their careers and lives. Because I stand for the power of women lawyers who want to have a big impact on the world and free themselves from the burden of loans or the billable hour so that they can do work in the world that feels meaningful and fulfilling.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Yes. And I know students might be wondering, why am I having you on, but you have a very unique story. And I also get, they need to hear some of these things, like why do we get burnt out? Why would we want to leave law? And you hit on a lot of things that just even something like the billable hour where it’s just like, you feel like your life is literally in like the six minute increments and it can get really tiring, even if you are pretty happy with your job. So, yeah. All right. So why don’t you go back and tell us about your legal journey?
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Yeah. My, my legal journey is starts with my dad and when I was a little kid, my dad was a criminal defense attorney and he would come home and we would play mock trial around the dinner table. And he had a small private practice in New York city to meet with a couple of, couple of his friends, one flight up. And I loved it. I loved, I love playing the prosecutor that putting the defense attorney. I love playing the judge and the jury. So we would each take a turn and I would go into his office and help him and go down to court with him. I found it all very like exciting and romantic. And my dad was good at like the closing arguments. And I, I thought it was all very dramatic until I was 14 and one night he didn’t come home and my dad had been arrested for embezzling money from a client.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
And fortunately he did not go to prison, but he was disbarred and he was, he was pretty disgraced. He didn’t ever really fully recover. I had big, second thoughts about going to law school then. And then when I was a senior in college, he actually developed a brain tumor and was, you know, really couldn’t make it to my graduation. And that really solidified it for me, that I was not ever going to go to law school. And so I had to figure out what I wanted to do and who else I wanted to be when upon graduation.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Wow. That is such a dramatic story. And I think it was probably the most erratic one I’ve heard. And, but what I have heard from people is, yeah, something happens to them where they can’t quite go to law school and so delaying or not going, made such a great change in their lives. Not that law school can’t also make a great change in your life. But but that, for a lot of people, this little side road has opened up a lot of different doors and opportunities for them. So what did you end up doing?
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yeah, I mean the, so I’m a lot older than your listeners. I’m in my mid fifties. So this is back pre-internet and I, I started you know, right after college volunteering for a women’s organization. And through there they had some like resources and kind of referral guides. And I was looking through those and then I found some Oregon more organizations that interested me and I just started sending my resume and applying. But I started with my interests, right? So like, I think this is, this is something that I help women lawyers now do when they’re in their late twenties and their thirties and their forties and their fifties, because they never took time to figure out, wait a minute, what am I really in that I could apply my, my amazing intellect and my passion and my energy towards, so I worked in like human sexuality and HIV and aids. This was excuse me, in the early nineties, during the aids crisis. And I worked on issues and with people, you know, with teenagers and doing training for other other professionals. And so I figured out what I was good at also. So I’m really good at T at training. I don’t want to call it really teaching. It’s really being like a facilitator. So I got really good at training. And then I ended up going to public health school and I got a master’s degree in public health.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Oh my gosh. Okay. Yeah. I think what you’re saying is correct that we, we need some training if we are to shift gears because it is a whole new, big, scary world out there. And I think we’ve been so trained with law school. Right? It’s, it’s so intense training to do this thing that we feel like we can’t do anything else or that we would need training for it. And I mean, a lot of attorneys actually do have side hustles. They have like little second careers, which is kind of crazy considering how many hours we work. But I think a lot of that is that we’re finding that second interest and we just one are a little afraid to leave law think, and then two, we don’t have the training, right. Even that little side hustle isn’t really, we’re not being trained. So it’s like, we’re used to being trained. So we’re just scared to me.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Right. Right. And when I, when I hear you saying trained, what I’m hearing is like school. Like I hear what I’m sort of reading between the lines is that you’re saying like, we need like official training and like going to school for something and tend to feel right. And like the women I serve are, or like probably like your listeners, they’re smart, they’re ambitious. They want to do good work in the world. They want to have an impact. They want to feel fulfilled and that their work is meaningful. And so when you’re a smart and whether it’s men, women, non binary people, whatever, it’s because I focus on women, but when you’re a smart girl and smart woman, you’ve done great in school, like going to law school feels like a logical next step. And what happens is that the actual practice of law for most of the people I work with is so vastly different than school, that all the skills and training and things that may do a great student, because you love to learn. And you love to do research and dive deep into something. Those are not prized and valued in law firm life.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Yeah. It’s definitely true. I people would always say your cases are so unique and it’s like, okay, I get assigned cases the same as you do. So probably your cases are just as unique. You just don’t see it because you’re not diving deep, but it’s, in some ways I was rewarded, but not exactly because it was kind of on my own time. Right? Like, I mean, I’m working extra hard to find these little things that are going to help my case versus most of us really just didn’t have time. So you’re just kind of almost top shooting a case. You’re just going through it as fast as you can. What are the issues? How can I settle? How can I get out of this case and move on to the next case? Because there’s another one coming down the pike. And so, yeah. I mean, I got a little reward for it, but really it was like, can I have like 20 less cases in my industry? We had like 85 to 100, so 20 cases less so that I can do this deep dive. And of course the answer is no, because there’s more coming,
Speaker 2 (09:38):
There’s more coming. Yeah. That’s probably right. And that probably scratched your itch Jolene. Right? Like you, that satisfied you to find that one little interesting tidbit that you could you’re Huck. Right. And here you are now a storyteller through podcasts and other medium. Right. But that was one of your special things. So, and I’m sharing this because like, I really want your listeners to like, know more about who they are and what lights them up and what’s their, their special thing so that they can find that whether it’s in law or some, or in something else. And, you know, as I said to you before
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Do that, because like, I, like I said, it’s, it’s all about for us education. Right. So it’s still, it feels like anything outside of traditional school is so scary. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
And that’s okay. Like that’s hard. Let’s just take a moment, normalize that. And like, that’s okay. It’s we, we grew up in this educational system that kept us on tracks. Right. And like, and this whole lockstep, you, you know, what’s coming, there’s comfort in it. There’s security. You don’t have to think too hard. You don’t have to look too far a field. And let’s just like normalize. It’s okay to want those things. And like, do you want where it’s taking you like go down the road, you know, as you said, before, we started recording interview. Some people interview, some lawyers doing international or immigration, like go talk to them. Would you want to be living that life in 10 years time? Right. Like, so, so that’s a one thing. That’s a way to investigate your interests because yeah. School, traditional school might feel safe now, but when you feel stuck and trapped, it doesn’t feel so safe and then it’s harder to get home.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
So that’s one thing. And in terms of finding, like what makes you tick and lights you up? I do use some assessments with clients, right? So, and I, I, anyone who’s never done their strengths finder assessment, the Gallup Clifton strengths it’s called Clifton strengths. They changed the name, but if you Google StrengthsFinder and I’m sure you can link to it in the show notes, like I highly, because it points out your top five natural gifts and talents, and not like the bottom of the list of things that will never really go from good to great to zone of genius in. But these are things like one of mine is ideation, right? I love coming up with new ideas. It’s super easy and fun for me. So what, what are things that are easy and fun for you? And those are probably your top five strengths, and you really want those as the bedrock of, of what you were doing and how you are working.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
That’s good to know. I did take that recently. I can’t remember. I have to go back and look at my strengths, what they are. I know I’m doing some of them at least, but yes. I love those types of tests because it really does uncover, you know, I went on the right path or how can I make this path, you know, twisted a little bit so that it does work better with my natural talents and you know what I’m all about. Totally.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yeah. Y you know, life and work is hard enough, like why not play to our strengths? And like, and just for example, I’ve worked with many women who have harmony and empathy in their top five, right. And relater. And so no wonder they’re having a hard time in litigation, right. They, they hate being in an adversarial confrontational environment and it’s like, oh, oh, that makes a lot of sense why this is not a good fit for me. So it’s really about understanding yourself better so that you can find the right fit again, whether it’s in law or in something else.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
So what are some reasons that you’ve seen typically that people really want to leave law?
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Well, the reasons that people want to leave LA who come to work with me is that they so my business called interested in leaving law. And I think that’s one of the things that appeals to a lot of people, because they’re not sure that they want to leave law yet many of them. And so, but the reasons that they want to at least start investigating what else they could do is because they feel very stuck. They don’t believe that they know their transferable skills or what else they could do. They feel the work is not meaningful or aligned with them. You know, and you mentioned immigration the other day. And actually, you know, there’s a spoke with a woman the other day, who’s doing immigration for a large firm. So it’s mostly like corporate clients, right? Not, not the immigrant, who’s trying to stay in the country with their children.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Yes. Right. And families. And so, and, and for her, she’s just, clients are calling her nonstop. She gets 200 emails a day and she’s, she’s an inbox, zero kind of person. And she it’s just, there’s no way to keep up. And now she has a toddler and she’d like to spend time with her child and husband and family. And without constantly worrying about work, having her phone ringing with clients, demanding what’s happening with their, with their case, when, you know, there’s only so much you can do. So that’s just one example. And there are dozens and dozens of, of, of just taking your laptop, always everywhere out for dinner, on vacation, never being able to unplug. And the anxiety that, that breeds when you don’t get a good night’s sleep, because you’re worried about, did you, did you, I tell assize the comma, you know, it’s just like these really, really insane to me as an outsider, insane things. And then I can be like an outside, like someone who’s outside of that world will be like, Hey, the rest of the world doesn’t function like that. Come on. It’s it’s okay. It’s really, you’ll be fine out here. Truly.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Yeah. It’s, it’s so true. And I don’t know if Lawson’s really understand the set that people do take their laptops everywhere, but in their phones and whatever. But I had a case I had transferred to a coworker and he went on vacation and he was supposed to prepare a memo for the upcoming hearing that was going to take place while he was gone. And he did it. And so somebody else was going to take that hearing, but he knew nothing. And it was a super complex, like super old case. So I said, you know what? I can figure out what’s going on a lot easier. It was my case a few years ago. Let me just, I’ll go through it. So I was prepping this memo for this guy and sent it out and the guy on vacation messages me, and he’s like, Hey, thanks for doing that. I was running behind. I was going to do it. And I’m like, wait, aren’t you still on vacation? Yes. Where are you Thailand? Why aren’t you enjoying your vacation? Oh, my wife’s not up yet. You know, I’m just doing some work. I’m like, you took your laptop to tell, okay.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
To Thailand, to Thailand
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Now, put it down,
Speaker 2 (16:55):
But it’s out and close it. Right. But you had to step in. And like you said, it was even a few years old and you stepped in and there’s one client who, she, she went to Peru for four days. She’s like, that was the best four days of my, since I started being a lawyer, because there was no way they could reach me. Like when you have to go so far away in the world that they can’t, that you’re really, really, truly unreachable as a way to unplug that’s. That’s why people reach out to me. Right? Like, they’re like, this is crazy. This is not the life I want to be living. Yeah. And again, so like, again, for law students or people, if you’re thinking about law school, like really, do you want a job where the expectation, the cultural norm is that you work nights and weekends and vacations. Yeah. Do you want that?
Speaker 1 (17:49):
No
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Tricks. Trust me. There’s a lot of other things you can do in the world. It’s not as clear of a path. Yes. And there’s tons of stuff
Speaker 1 (17:58):
And you can still help people and all that good stuff. You
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Can probably help more people. You can probably be more helpful to more people. Right.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
I think what I’ve found, and I don’t know if this is true for you, but a lot of people go into law school, one to help people, but because of their debt, they get stuck taking a higher paying job that doesn’t necessarily help people, at least, you know, I mean, I think most law jobs do kind of help people in some way, but you’re helping maybe businesses instead of, you know, the, the, the poor person or whatever it is.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Yeah, for sure. A hundred percent. I hear that all the time. So they, they went into law to, to do good work in the world because it was intellectually challenging. They wanted to be around smart people. And then they got sucked into a big law firm with a bigger paycheck, so they could pay down the big debt and then they feel stuck and it can often get even more and more pigeonholing as you go further in a big firm. And then you feel even less, like you’ve got transferable skills and anything to offer the rest of the world, which you still do by the way. But it, it is very, very much the case. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Yeah. Now I do try to help people avoid the debt, but yes, if that’s not possible, if it’s too late how can they escape these nice paying jobs and work just yeah. For a non-profit or, you know, as a non-attorney or, you know, all these non attorney jobs where they are doing their passion.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Yeah. It’s great. Great question. So first it starts with, like I said, really knowing who you are and what you have to offer. So I take people through a process, I call it ease, and you can do it right now, even if it works for, for everyone. It’s what are the elements that you want present in your work and in your life? So those are the things like I was talking about before. What do you find easy and fun when you get in a state of flow, what’s, you know, what kinds of tasks are you doing? What could you, what would you love to do all day, every day for an like, and if you weren’t, even, if you weren’t getting paid, you would be happy to do it. So those are the kinds of things to, to explore and get really clear on. And then, and then create a list of what are some appealing, new possibilities.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
So this is what we take clients through. And we’ll, so we, you know, have I, me and my coaches, we coach people. So we get, do some brainstorming together. And let’s say, you love to do research. You’re, you’re methodical. You’re great. Project manager, you like to, you, you love the beauty industry, right? So maybe you’d be really interested in market research in the, in the beauty space, right? So we brainstorm, appealing new possibilities. Then you, our clients, then you prioritize those and then you go out there and have those informational conversations with people in that industry to see what does it really like? What’s a typical day. Like, you know, how much do you get paid? What’s the travel requirement. If you don’t like to travel, you don’t want to take a job that where you’re traveling 20, 30, 40% time. Yeah. Those are the things you get clear on in the elements. And then you check out in that study research phase, and then finally you engage in consistent action and you talk to people, you work on your own mindset and your own beliefs. And this is something we do a lot in will is believing. Like I can do something other than be a lawyer. I am smart and capable. There is a lot out there for me. So we work on mindset and a whole bunch of different ways.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Yeah. That’s super important because I think we’ve been told we’re good at this one thing. And especially in law, you know, you go into one area and you do get pigeonholed, you get kind of stuck. You might have a chance to jump into a different area, maybe a few years in, but then you’re kind of stuck new, unless you, again, you want to take a big pay cut, but most of us are like, oh, we can’t do that. So we get stuck. And then we feel like that’s our only talent. That’s our only field. And we’re good for like nothing else.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Right. And that’s, that’s the fear. That’s the, that’s the belief. And so we work on those beliefs, right. That like the belief that you have to take a big pay cut. Do you know that? For sure. Right. Do you a hundred percent know that, for sure. Like, so, so get out there and do some of the research. Do you, do you need as much money to live on as you think you do? And I know there’s all sorts of wonderful coaches out there who help lawyers, help people figure out how to pay down their debt and, and make a career transition. It’s, there’s all this either or thinking in the legal mind that you’re trained to think that way. And so what I love to help people do, and if there’s one takeaway, anyone gets from this is like, it’s not always either. Or there’s both. And there’s usually lots more options. There’s on the other side of that. And so I hear those stories, right? I’m pigeonholed. I don’t know how to do anything else. I’d have to take a big pay cut. And when we think those thoughts, when you think those thoughts, Jolene, how does it feel?
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Yeah. It’s so it’s just like, even my heart clenches, you know, it’s, it’s very restricting, but you believe it because you do believe, well, I’ve had so many little pay raises that I can’t possibly just laterally move. I can’t, you know, monetarily that I have to take a big pay cut because I’ve been told even in the legal industry, that if I change areas a lot, I’m going to be taking a big pay cut. And so if I was especially to leave law, it’d be even worse. Right. Right.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Well, that’s, that’s the belief, that’s the story. Is that true or not? And I think lawyers think I’m going to take a big pickup. It’s going to go from whatever it is. $200,000 to zero or 30,000. Right. It’s like a number of people have in their head. It’s like, well, is that true? Like actually, if you take another job, you’ll probably get paid pretty well because you are a lawyer that’s gonna, that’s gonna bump you up. So before you make all those assumptions and, and in your brain rule out the possibilities, I mean, it was very touching when you just said, like, I felt a clench in my heart. It felt restrictive. Yeah. Right. So if it feels restrictive and it feels scary, you’re not going to take any action. Right. And then what results would you
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Yeah. And it’s, it’s funny because I love your system because I definitely a handful of years ago, like 2017, I just, I love Halloween. That’s my thing. And so I just decided, you know what, I’ve lost Halloween. Like, yes, I throw us up and stuff, but I don’t spend enough time doing it. And so in 2018, I applied to work at one of the local hay rights. And I was just like, okay, it’s going to be like $13 an hour, but I’m just going to work on Friday and Saturday nights, you know, they’re busy nights and that’s it. And I’m just going to see, I’m just going to see what’s here. I mean, I’m the meet the people. Yeah. See how they run it. What are they doing? I hate I get free passes. Yay. That kind of thing. But it was so much fun.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
I learned so much, it was great. I was invited back in 2019. I actually couldn’t do it in 2019, but I, and of course, 2020, forget it. So, but it was, so I just had such a great time and it turned out, they put me in the ticket booth, which at first I thought, well, I’m not out there right. With the people, but actually they ran the business from the ticket booth. So I learned how they ran the business and everybody in the ticket booth had a college degree. And I was just like, wow, like one girl was an accountant and another girl was, she worked for the studios, but you know, she had, again, they all have their college degrees, so we all have very nice, intelligent conversations. So I still was surrounded by people, you know, with an education that were nice to talk to. And yeah, it was such a fabulous experience. So what else did
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Give you in terms of like, just scratching that itch of like, I love Halloween, like what did it give you?
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Yeah. You know, it also gave me that exposure to people who have an interest because everyone who had applied there had that interest too. It wasn’t just, I need a part-time job. Right. So just knowing there’s a community out there, you don’t like me that has this love of, you know, Halloween. And, you know, when I hit applied, I think I had just puked all over the interviewer, how much I just wanted to get back into the Halloween vibe, you know? And she had actually undergone a huge career transition. She had gone from accounting to PR and stuff like that. So she was like, I’ll just make sure, you know, everything doing and how I’m running it and all that. And so it was really great. So she and I are still friends and yeah, it just really was neat to see, you know, I don’t want to do what she was doing. I don’t want to refine it. You know, and obviously I don’t wanna live my life in a ticket booth, but at the same time haunts are kind of run was I don’t know. It just checked off a big Keck list on my bucket list that I didn’t know I had.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Yeah. I just, I there’s so much in that story. That’s I think really worth pausing on for a moment and highlighting, is that okay? This is, I’m a little bit coachy here, but it’s like, look, you have this interest in Halloween. Right. And someone might dismiss that as frivolous or whatever, but like, hello, Halloween is a multi-billion dollar a year industry. Like just this holiday, right. From the pop-up shops to this stuff, to the, like a bajillion things. Right. So, so you followed it an interest and then you developed really in like, you were genuine in your interview, you just like, like you said, you puked all over, right. So you framed it sort of negatively, but like you just were enthusiastic and, and, and they put you in front of people because they knew your love of Halloween was going to shine through and people would be welcomed, like from the moment they bought their ticket to the end of the ride and you were going to kick off that experience for them. And then you got a business mentor and a friend in the process of you being genuine li just forthright about who you are and what you’re interested in. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Yeah. And you know, I’ll say what you were saying about transferable skills is absolutely true. Now I froze when it was time to use my transferable skills, but I did learn a very good lesson because, you know, they say failures the best lesson or whatever, but somebody had come up to the ticket booth, cause it really is the only office with a complaint, right. That, you know, the scare actor did this thing to my daughter and just, it was this whole dramatic thing. And of course I’m like, I don’t know how to handle this. So the head person handled it. But what she was doing was deposing the person. It was crazy. I was like, I could do that. That’s a depo. She was just like, what time, which actor, what did he look like? Where were you? I mean, just all the questions. And I was like, I could have done that. And it was clear that the person was totally lying to get free tickets, but I was just like, wow. And then of course, you know, I’ve handled lots of liars in my depots and you know, so I could think as she was talking, how would I handle somebody lying to get free tickets and all this kind of stuff. Right. And it was just, it was such an amazing experience to see somebody with those depo skills. That’s not an attorney, you know?
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Right, right. Right. And, and, and it’s really just interviewing someone, it’s asking questions, it’s being curious. It’s it’s so it’s, and that’s, I think one of the things like for, for people who are struggling with, well, what other skills do I have? Like take what you’re good at, what you’d like to do and break it down into like, what are steps. If I was explaining this to a fifth grader, like if you said that’s a depo, you know, a fifth grader wouldn’t know what that is. Right. If you’re like, I asked specific questions, I’m get, I’m getting as much information I’m asking some open-ended questions, some closed into questions. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
So it was a lot of fun to learn and yeah, like you said, I never thought of myself as having transferable skills as an attorney, but when I saw that, I just thought, wow, that’s, it’s so interesting.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Yeah, for sure. You’ve got way more transferable skills. And it’s even like go back to the things that you love to do in high school or college, you know, or what did you volunteer for in college? Those are, those are going to point you to some of your interests and where some of those transferable skills also live.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
So now, as far as transferring within law, what type of transitions do you tend to see and how does that work?
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Yeah, so, so will members many of them continue to stay in the law, but many of them I’d say about 60%, 50 to 60% continue to practice in their next role. Also in something legal they’ll often go from a big firm to a smaller firm with much, much less billable hour requirements with real, actually a better, a better work-life balance. Most people don’t want to go big firm to big firm because it’s really, they, they see it as pretty much the same thing. Yeah. So that’s, and so, but many of them are starting their own businesses. And even if they go to another firm for like a first step, then they’ll start taking classes in something. So it might not being be going back fully to school for another whole, you know, becoming a social worker or a therapist, or, you know, so one person is considering getting an MBA, but, but she doesn’t even really need it.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
I think she’s still a little bit in the mentality of like, I need more training. But, but like one person’s working in real estate, one person got a job at the metropolitan museum of art. Someone is a Montessori school preschool teacher now, and she was a 32 year equity partner. Right. So someone wants to own her own swum, bought a Lama, not Aloma and I’ll pack up, oh, excuse me. Someone bought an alpaca and she’s actually in LA. So she has it at an alpaca ranch outside of Los Angeles. And she wants to develop a whole sustainable retreat center. That’s good for the land. Good for the alpacas. Good for the people who come there and the people who work there someone who is becoming a forest therapy, nature guide two people actually are doing that. It’s just, it’s really, it’s hard for me to say what, what people go to because it’s so unique. It’s is unique as the individual.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Wow. That’s a forest therapy nature guide. And I just, yeah. Alpaca owner, it’s just, it’s amazing.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Right, right. But it’s not like she’s not starting by old. I mean she’s and she was a S first, she was a first year associate when she started working with me. So she, it’s not like she has a retreat center. Yeah. But she’s working towards that. And she starting with one alpaca who’s pregnant and then she’ll have two, and then it’s going to grow over time and she’s taking classes again. And I think, you know, I mean, online education was certainly a big business before COVID, but really you can study anything in these micro ways now and get training. That’s not having to go back to school and really incur more debt.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Yeah. I listen to Tim Ferriss and I’ve read his, one of his books, the four hour work before and yeah. And he was going to go back to get his MBA. And then he just decided he, I think he interviewed some people and he was just realizing he wasn’t going to learn anything practical really through the MBA. So he just took a whole bunch of classes or like, you know, independent, right. And just learned independently what he needed to do to run a business. And it’s like, that’s all you really need is, Hey, I mean, you dummies out there. There’s all kinds of other options out there where you can learn, you know, how to run a business and all the different things, all the stuff that we lawyers also don’t know, but kind of almost wish we did know about trademark copyright and some of that stuff that we might need when we run up business. So, you know, you don’t have to go to law school for that. You can definitely learn that on, you know, me, I’m always searching those Udemy classes. I love learning. And it’s just, it’s amazing. What’s out
Speaker 2 (34:29):
There. I bet learners in your top five.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Yeah. I can’t even remember. I wish
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Yeah. Go look at a learner. I would bet money that learners in your top five. Definitely in your top 10. Yeah. If you love learning. And I think, again, that’s one of the things that is very common among the people I work with.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Yes. And there was definitely, I, I know something about, you know, interpersonal talking something, something that was like, yes. Okay. Yes. I have a podcast and so forth. So for sure.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Maybe connectedness what’s that
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Connectedness. Yeah. That’s probably what it is. It’s definitely that meme of a, what is it? Dear teacher moving my seat. Doesn’t help. I talked to everyone that’s like, that was,
Speaker 2 (35:14):
So then you have a podcast and you can talk to everyone. Okay.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
I love it. I love it. But, okay. So, all right. So we can do anything, which is awesome. You’ve given me so many, just broader ideas. Cause I also try to help the pre-loss students see these options because we do feel like we’re so tunnel vision and just you’ll pause. Maybe take some gap years law school be there. You know, you can be a, you know, whatever, again, a ticket booth person for awhile and may go to law school. So if people feel like they’re just not going to be ambitious enough, unless they go to law school or go to higher education, do you have anything to help them bring them off that ledge?
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Ambitious enough. What do you mean by that?
Speaker 1 (36:05):
I think a lot of pre-loss students feel like they need this extra degree so that they can tell people I’m in a word I’m smart, I’m ambitious, I’m hard working. And other things like I’m a secretary, right? It doesn’t scream. I’m brilliant and smart and all that stuff.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
So listen, if you want the lawyer identity and label and prestige, great, you can do that. Right. And if you’re, if you want a word that, and it’s worth it to you to go to law school, to pay for law school, to have that have at it. I just, I w again, if there’s like, if I help one person through this podcast, just be like, pause, like, wait a minute. Why do I want those things? Right. Why, why is that? What does that say about me? What, what is it I want to tell the world, right? And maybe you come from an immigrant family and you’re the first person in your, in your family to go to go to college. And you have an opportunity to go to law school and succeed in a classic American way. You know, those are factors that only, only you can decide.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
And it’s, again, it’s like just a, a once you’re a lawyer also like no one can take that away from you. You always will be a lawyer and you can be a lawyer and something else. So you can be a lawyer and a podcast posts, or you can be a lawyer and a writer, a lawyer, and a clown, a lawyer, and a forest therapist. I mean, so, so the client who’s becoming first therapist, she has her own firm. She does employment law and, and, you know, starting to do first therapy too. So it’s, it’s really up to you. I mean, the one thing as an outsider that that is a myth I want to bust is that there aren’t smart people outside of law firms. And this is, this is like, this is where it’s like a little bit of a pet peeve of mine. I will totally own that. Which is like, well, there, I want to be around other smart people. And I can just tell you there’s smart people everywhere.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Yeah. I think it’s hard because in college we’re yeah. We’re at that precipice where it’s like, do I go to law school? Do I do something else? Right. It’s it’s law school or everything else in the world. And law school seems to be this path of one. It’s a, it’s a path, first of all. So that’s always nice. But it’s also a path to hardworking, again, intelligent professional people, or at least that’s what we think. And the other one is iffy. And, and first of all, I will say, there are plenty of stupid attorneys. I don’t know how they become attorneys. Honestly, they like, it’s like they have no brain cells. So I’m just gonna put that out there. Second of all, there are plenty of unprofessional attorneys out there as well. There are attorneys who get into fights at the courthouse. I mean, physical fights. It’s totally unprofessional. There are screamers and yellers, which is unprofessional as well. There’s plenty of the bad side in law as well. And then you go, yeah. The other direction, which, okay. Yes. At this moment, maybe for you, it doesn’t have a path, but yeah. There’s intelligent people everywhere, as you said, it’s just, I feel like some people just want that security of I’ll be around smart professional people. And I think that there is no technical security in that. Like I said, my experience
Speaker 2 (39:52):
And I’m going to speak to just, if I may, for a moment to the agenda, the gender dynamic that I see happening in big firms also, and I saw someone posted something about this on LinkedIn recently. And it was like, yes, yes, yes I is. There is. And I’m just gonna, can I just be kind of brazen and say, there’s, there’s a dynamic of like, there’s a lot of older men who are partners in firms and then these like young women who are praised and yes, there’s plenty of young men. Again, I’m just going to speak to women for a moment. If I may, who are praised for their intelligence, there’s so much people pleasing that happens. And there’s like, it’s hard to say no. And it’s just, there’s like a dynamic of like being the, the young up and coming pretty young thing. And then, and then I, then men ultimately are promoted to partner ahead of women, women end up opting out because there is this barely under the surface sexism and patriarchy of law firm culture. Yeah. And then women end up opting out and then feeling shame and feeling like they couldn’t hack it. And that’s a lot of what we combat and we’ll also, but I just, I just want to name that, but that’s really present in big law firm culture for many of the women that I serve. I hear stories that make me cringe.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Yes. I will say that one place I worked there were all kinds of sexist jokes and just comments and, and I wasn’t very good at playing the game. So I did not last too long, you know, when there were favorites, you know, of the young girls and it was known for hiring young girls and they would only hire a guy every so often when this managing attorney kind of almost would get yelled at by coworkers, you know? And then, so then all of a sudden the guy would appear, but then it would be, you know, a slew of girls again. And on the one hand, it was a great culture because you’re one of a bunch of young girls. So it’s not like you’re the only girl in the firm or something, but you kind of knew why you were there and it’s icky. And like I said, I couldn’t just smile and laugh. Like everybody else I tried
Speaker 2 (42:20):
And you went into it. Right. And then, and then, you know, two women I’ve spoken with in this past week where eighth year associates going up for partner, one because she had clerked for a year was technically in her from a seventh year. But in her career, she was an eighth year and she didn’t get invited to be partner to apply for partnership. And she asked the managing partner, like, what can I do? I want more information. And she got her, her handed to her. Right. And then all the other women in the firm said, just, just go kiss the ring, just go kiss the ring. So like, I, this is the kind of thing. And now, you know, now she’s working with me because she’s like, I can’t stand this anymore. I don’t want to give any more of my life to this.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Yeah. Yeah. It’s horrible. Cause that’s what happened to me is my second year raised discussion. It wasn’t really happening. And yet I had all the professional development. I had the happy clients. I had saved a client so much money. People were coming in, getting hired, making more than me. And I was like, what? You and I had all the logic and the reasoning. And I got kicked out of his office three times because he couldn’t stand talking to me. And I was like, this is it. I got to go. This is not gonna work. And, and I was happy at that firm in every other way. The other partners adored me, you know, for, for my actual work, you know? And you know, and of course all the girls, we all got along and everything, but I was like, this, isn’t going to pay my bills in the long run. I need to make more money to pay off my student loans. And this is just a horrendous relationship here. So yeah. Luckily I only stayed there two years, but oh my gosh. Yeah. People get stuck and they feel like they have to keep going and, and, and they want that partnership, you know? So they, they feel like they have to stay otherwise if they go to another firm that are derailing their partnership track to
Speaker 2 (44:11):
That’s again, I want to just like point out that’s another myth and story. And especially now legal talent, like hot, hot, hot, right? Like lateraling everywhere partners. Lateraling like, so it just like, you’re never stuck unless you think you are.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Yes. I’ve definitely seen people get hired as a partner at a, another firm when they were not partner before. And I’ve seen partners come down to just be a regular associate at other firms. So you can, you can kind of do what you want. If you want an easier life and your partner, it was driving you crazy. You can come down and yeah, you can get hired in as a partner. I’ve seen it. So,
Speaker 2 (44:49):
And again, back to like, what do you want your life to look like? Do you want, because you know, I once spoke to a junior partner at a very big firm and she was sandwiched between the big guys, men. Right. And all the associates underneath her, then she was still the one responsible for everything. And she, she lost her. Like she burst into tears at her daughter’s birthday party while carrying the cake. Right. Like, is that like, just what, what do you want your life to look like?
Speaker 1 (45:23):
Yeah. Now I know you provide lots of helpful content on LinkedIn. What is your handle over there?
Speaker 2 (45:29):
It’s Elena Deutsch. I think it’s just a [inaudible].
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Yeah, I do. I love, I love popping into LinkedIn and get these thoughts. I, I jump in pretty much every day and just share, share something I hope is helpful for lawyers in anyone. I mean, we’re all trying to live our best lives, right? It’s for all trying to bring, I am trying to bring my natural gifts and talents and passion to the world. And I just believe there’s, there’s so much brilliance among women lawyers in particular who are giving it away, often doing work for, for, to make, as in, in, in their own words to make banks and insurance companies richer, and it’s not satisfying their soul. And so if this is resonating for you and you want soul satisfying work, figure it out now, figure it out later. But don’t don’t you have so much to offer the world. The world needs is, you know one of my online teachers, Marie Forleo says the world needs a special gift that only you have. So let’s let it shine to get out of the firm and into the world.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
Yes. Love her. Yes. Great advice. Anywhere else that they should be finding you besides LinkedIn.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
My website women interested in leaving law.com. Beautiful.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
All right. Thanks for joining us today. I appreciate
Speaker 2 (46:47):
It. So with Julian, I think so for allowing me to rant there a little bit of
Speaker 1 (46:53):
My top takeaways from this chat with Elena, number one, a lot of times lawyers are disillusioned with the practice of law because it’s nothing like going to school to learn law. So really try to figure out what’s on that tail end, because more education is not the same as practicing law. Are you actually going to be happy with that end product? You may remember this from a handful of episodes ago when we had Megan smiley on the show, but she talked about the strengths finders test. So tip number two, go take the strength finders test. There is a free version. You don’t necessarily get a full analysis. You don’t get to necessarily keep all your answers, but you get to keep some of it. And it really tells you where your strengths are so that you can play to those strengths. Is there an area of law that plays to those strengths?
Speaker 1 (47:46):
And if not, should you be looking around at other career fields and the number three know who you are? What do you like? What do you want to see? What works for you? What is easy for you? What do you want in your future? Do the research and then take steps towards that. That’s it for this episode, all the tips links and so forth will be in the show notes. A full transcript will be available@legallearningcenter.com for slash w I L L that’s women interested in leaving law. And if you enjoyed the show, if you learned something today, please leave us a review, go over to iTunes, leave us some stars, leave a note that just helps the show and it helps more people discover the show. Thanks.
