Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the legal learning podcast. I’m your host Jolene. And with the Legal Learning Center, I helped prospective law students save $300,000 on law school to receive three money saving strategies today. Visit legal learning center.com for sash money. Today’s guest is Gabrielle, Gabrielle attended a two year program in law school. She’s going to share with us all the pros and cons. So let’s check in with Gabrielle.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
I’m Gabrielle, Gabrielle Folkner. I am a somewhat new grad, although I’ve been feel like I’ve been out for a while. I graduated in December, 2019 December. You asked I did a two year program. So yeah that’s me. I graduated from New York law school 2 year honors program. But yeah, so now I work as an IP attorney for a virtual firm, 100% remote and I absolutely love what I do trademarks and copyright is my jam.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Awesome. Okay. So yes, we are here today to discuss two year programs and in particular, your experience and thoughts on a two year program, because it is a very unique kind of way to do law school and it is something available out there nationwide. I’m sure they’re all just a little bit different, but to give our listeners a little bit of an idea, why don’t you go ahead and give us a general layout of how a two-year program works?
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Yeah, so from my perspective, for my two year law school program, we had the same kind of entry process. You did have to apply to the two year program, but I do know some people that applied to the normal three-year program and were tapped and they were like, you seem like you would do really well in this accelerated program. So why don’t you come join? And so, you know, when that happened, it was kind of very fast. Like I think I was told that I was accepted in, I don’t know, December, and then the program started in January, January 18th. And so it was a very fast transition for me. I was already working as a paralegal, so it was a little easy just to be able to be like, okay, like, you know, this drill, I have to go to law school now.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
It was, it was really fun. I will say doing a two year program and I think there’s benefits and detriments depending on your personality. For me, I am the kind of person who wants to be going, going and going and not have any breaks because if I have a break, I get super lazy. So the two year program was like, great in that aspect. I will say there obviously, you know, where some things that would be fixed. So I’ll start with just like the general you know, outlay is we started in January and we, you know, had a semester, you know, like a normal you know, winter to spring semester. And then we had a summer semester and then we had a fall semester. So just, you know, 24 consecutive, straight months, we had, you know, one week in between our spring and summer semester and three weeks in between our summer and fall semester.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
So, you know, we did have breaks. It’s not like we were going, going, going all the time, but it was definitely, you know, we had to say that we couldn’t work, which like for our first semester, which for people who were doing this two year program, which they advertised my school ended at least to a lot of people that were already in a career and they wanted a second career and they wanted to be an attorney. And so that’s kind of like who this program was advertised to. I will say the makeup of our program was not that we had a few people who this was their second career, but the majority of the people in there were kids who had just graduated from college. I was a paralegal, but I didn’t consider that as a career at that point.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
That was just a transition to go into law school. So I was kind of like in the middle, right. Like I wasn’t just graduated, but I didn’t have like a whole career behind me. And yeah, so, I mean, that was the layout. It was, we had a little bit more credits that we were taking during the semester, then the normal three-year program students. So, we had that first week of January, we did kind of like an orientation, although that orientation was a class that we got credit for, it was an intro into legal reasoning class. Very fun, although that class, because it was truncated into one week, the days were like from eight o’clock to 5:00 PM. And so, you know, that was our first class and then it was super intense, but it got us ready.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
And then the next week the normal school started and we started our actual like real semester then we didn’t have a lot of interaction with normal you know, three year students. That was, you know, there was like 16 of us when the program started. We only graduated seven. So you can tell there how difficult it was to stay in the program. But you know, we had miniature classrooms, we were pretty much, you know, kept to ourselves for our first semester. We did get to like break out once, you know, we had our first semester and our first semester was, you know, the introductory classes, it was criminal law, it was torts, civil practice, civil procedure. So, a lot of those classes. And then the next semester we again had a lot of the first year classes, although we were able to, if we want to take a few extra credits and that’s like going back to what I was talking about with the credits.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
I remember sitting finally, like the first time I branched out into a meeting three-year students was when my first week of orientation for law review. And that’s also something I can talk about. Cause law review for the two year program was also something that was very interesting. But so, and I remember a student sitting in the classroom being like, how are we supposed to write a case comment when we already have an 11 credit load? And I was sitting over here thinking I have a 16 credit load, like I’m supposed to do a case comment. And so, there obviously were differences, but like I said, I liked that fast paced kind of thing. I felt like I got better grades because all I did, all I did for two years was law. I didn’t do anything else.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
So, it was fun and I would do it again for sure, getting to some caveats, for example journals and clinics. Like I really wanted to be in a clinic that was something that somebody said to me was necessary in law school. You know, it helps you like actually have like a legal education, not just theory, but also practice. And so I really wanted to do it. And I obviously I was interested in the like intellectual property at the time, but I was also interested in trial and mediation and stuff like that. And so I applied for the mediation clinic and I’m very happy to say I got in, but boy, was it a struggle? Because when I applied, I was accepted and then I was told by the administration that the two year honors program could not participate in clinics because the New York city requires that you have 30 credits before you can enter a clinic.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
And the two year program by my third semester was only going to have 28 credits. And so there was a little bit of a struggle there. We actually did my, you know, my school did stick up for us two year program students. And they went to, you know, the court of appeals in New York City. And they said, you know, this rule is here, but we need to, you know, we need to fight it for this one specific instance. And they were successful. We were able to join clinics, which was something super exciting for me. I wanted that, you know, practice and in real life. The next thing that was super interesting was getting onto the law review. So for people who graded on it was very much, there were a few considerations, right? So our program was considered an honors program.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
And the reason was, is because we got what was considered the hard professors, right? And so the professors that graded hard, we also had a different curve than the rest of the normal three-year program. So we were a very, you had to keep a specific GPA to stay in the two year program. And so if you didn’t have a 3.0, by the end of your second semester, you had to decelerate and you had to join the three-year program. And so, you know, it was very weird, you know, how were we going to be compared to grade onto the law review with people who had a different curve than us and had different professors than us and all of the above. Now it worked out that me, my best friend and two other students were able to grade onto the larger view, which was absolutely fantastic.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
I mean, it was also another thing that I was told, this is what you have to do in law school. Now you’re talking to attorney Gabby, and this is like, I would have different advice, but this is the advice that I had gone into law school with. So we needed a clinic and needed a journal graded on, but we didn’t find out that we had graded on because our summer semester was our second semester. And so, you know, we hadn’t had those grades until the summer semester was over, which meant that when students normally find out that they grade onto law review in August or in July, we didn’t find out until, you know, the end of August, the beginning of September that we graded on. And there was already deadlines for the case comment research to begin. And we were just like, oh my God, the three-year program students have already met these deadlines of this case comment. And we haven’t even been given the instructions yet. You know, so there was obviously some kinks to work out there. I actually, I was very vocal with my school about my experiece, from my perspective. So, there’s lots of different things that have consideration when you’re going into a two year program. For sure.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Oh my gosh. Yes. Okay. Yeah. You said so much that I’m like, I have a million questions for you.
Speaker 2:
Ask away.
Speaker 1:
Let’s go back to the beginning. I’ll start with the admissions part. So was there a higher standard, or what was the difference between people who did want to go into the two year program versus the normal three year program?
Speaker 2 (10:17):
This is what I know from my experience, but also from the experience that I’ve spoken to with other two year students you could apply for the two year program. And in fact, many people did. However, like I said, one or two were tapped from the three-year program. And I also know that even though people were tapped from the three-year program, that a few people were put on the wait list for the two year program, which to me seemed a little interesting. Why would you be going to the three-year program to tap students if you have people that are waiting to get onto this list? I think what the standard was is that if you had a higher than average for what my schools LSAT and GPA was, but if you applied to the three-year program, you could be tapped for the two year program.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
And other than that I do think that the people who got on the waiting list for the two year program were on the lower scale of the GPA and the LSAC score, grading system. So, they called it the two year honors program. It was something that you were supposed to have a little bit higher of a GPA, and you couldn’t go below a 3.0, in law school, you can’t go below, I think like a 2.7. And if you do, you go on probation and then if you go below a two, you get like essentially kicked out. So it was just a little harder standard for the two year program instead of being a 2.0, you had to have a 3.0, which is, in law school, that’s a very like common GPA to have like a 2.9 or 3.0, to be like, right on that line. So I actually know a few kids who were in the two year program who eventually, appealed decision for them to be decelerated and, they were successful. So they were able to stay in the program, which was, which was great.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Were you less qualified or more qualified for scholarships then?
Speaker 2 (12:07):
So super interesting with our program with the two year program was that you, no matter what, if you were a part of the program, you got a third, I believe of your tuition paid for. So essentially they priced you, they quoted you, what a normal three year education program would be. And they said, if you’re going to be in the two year program, you don’t have to pay a third of that. And then, you know, also just within the hierarchy of grades and whatnot, you were still eligible for additional scholarship. So there were people in their two year program that got a full ride, and there were people who, in those two year program who got their one third scholarship and that’s it, you know, and to me, the one third kind of felt a little ridiculous because we were spending, I mean, yes, we were spending a third less time in school. And that makes sense. But, you know, we still technically had six semesters and all of this stuff, but it was at such an accelerated rate that it just felt like we were paying for time for a full third year, rather than two, you know, one month semesters. And so it felt like it should have been a little bit, you know, a little bit less money than, than the norm than what they charged. Let’s just put it that way.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Okay. No, that’s good to know. Cause yeah, my understanding is that they charge in a way where you’re dollar for dollar, it’s not necessarily a cost savings, you know, scholarships make things maybe a little bit different, but actual dollar for dollar, there is no savings. They kind of change the way they charge or something like that when I was investigating this. So yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Yes. And that was my experience too. They, the charging was changed and it was, it was weird and it was kind of hard to navigate what I felt like I should be paying for such a program, you know, because maybe I thought I should be paying something different than a normal three-year program. So yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Especially if it’s harder to actually participate in clubs and, and other things, you know, activity.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Yeah. And that’s something that I didn’t even mention when I was going through my long diatribe. Right, right. Like I’m an intellectual property attorney and going into it, I knew going into law school, I knew that’s what I wanted to do. And I remember going to the, in my school we had centers. So there was like a law and technology center. And I remember I went to the advisor for the center and I was like, I want to be admitted now. And he was like okay, well, you know, you can’t, you have to have a full year under your belt to be able to join the center. And I was like, well, listen, I’m not going to have that because I mean, like I technically could, but I wouldn’t be able to really benefit from any of the, you know, any of like the lunches and all that stuff.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
If I can’t join. And, you know I made my case. I, I’m not a lazy one. I’m not going to go be told no. And they actually listened to that. I made my case and I was able to be accepted into the program like two weeks later, which was absolutely wonderful for me. And, you know, really made, first of all, it made my connection with the advisor a lot stronger, which when you’re in the two year program and you don’t necessarily, you know, have guests, I mean, you have guest lecturers and everything, but you don’t get to really interact with all of the professors in school. It was definitely good for me. Like I, I found a group of people and then I was actually able to interact with the three-year students, which, you know, that always makes law school a good experience. For example, I didn’t have any other people in my two year program who were interested in trademarks, it was nice to be able to branch out in that aspect. But, the two year program was a limit on that at first. And then I was able to get around that. So at least you’re able to get around things sometimes when the rules don’t work in your favor, but you do have to fight for it for sure.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Wow. Okay. That’s really good to know, you know, before people sign up for programs, they know so little, law schools keep so much of that information hidden.
Speaker 2:
They do.
Speaker 1:
Now, what was the vibe? I’m sure every school is different, but you know, was it very collegial or adversarial in inside your section?
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Definitely adversarial, I will say. We had communication with the two year program from before us. So the group that was just one year before us and they had a lot of conflict in that class and they told us about it. And I think us the 16 of us really like met together. And we were like, we don’t want to feel this way. But I mean, you know, I was the one who was raising my hand constantly in class. And even when people were getting called a cold call and I would be like, they don’t know the answer. Like I know it, you know?
Speaker 2 (16:52):
And so, I think for me it was let me support them, but for, I think other people were like, I know that there was somebody who was super catty that was like, this lady just raised her hand when I was cold called and was like, I didn’t do it in a negative way, I was just trying to help. And so obviously in law school, that’s always going to be the case, right. You have overachievers and you have people who are just there to learn and they don’t really know much. And like I said, I had just spent a year and a half as a paralegal, learning the ins and outs about torts and litigation and everything like that. And so I had a base knowledge, you know, I knew some of the cases that our torts professors would throw at us.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
And so, I mean, it was adversarial, but we also understood that it was the 16 of us against the rest of the school. And that was definitely something I appreciated. I still talk to every single one of the first year members, like the first year class now I said we graduated seven. So I still talk to the people who didn’t even eventually graduate from the program because that first year, that first semester where you’re really shepherded into a little mini group, it makes you either, there are two outcomes. You’re either gonna be super adversarial or you’re going to be super close. And I was lucky enough that we had a good group of people who we all decided together. Like, even if we are fighting each other for better grades, we’re still gonna be civil on the human front. But you know, the program is professional obviously like differences than the normal, like standard three-year program, where you have such like set and ingrained rules about how to, you know, do these kinds of things. So there was definitely, and maybe it was a good and a bad thing, you know, you had some leeway to try and get around these rules, but like rules were created to essentially, you know, not hinder, but make it harder to be a two year student. For sure.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Now were you able to intern cause that sounds really difficult.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
So that is my biggest gripe with the two year program. So one thing that I wasn’t really able to do, first of all, was sit for OCIs. I did not have my second semester grades by the time OCIs rolled around. And so that was really hard. I do remember one firm was willing to give me a chance just based on my first semester grades, which was really great. I didn’t want to go with that firm just for my own personal reasons. And so, maybe I messed it up, but really we weren’t really given the opportunity to join OCI. And so a lot of the work that we did for internships was ourself and it was also, you have to remember, I mean, most people do internships during the summer and we were told if you’re going to be going to school for a full day, you’re not really allowed to work at night.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
I definitely got around that my first semester I was doing class from, nine to four and then I would go and I would work at the firm from 4:30 to eight. And so that was my day. And then when did I do homework well I did it when I got home. And so I was lucky in that. Right. But you know, if you think about it, that first two semesters, so, you know, the spring semester and the summer semester, nobody in my 16 group of people was working in the law. And you know, that’s that first summer is so important. You get your first internship. It’s so important. I mean, like one of my best friends from law school who went to the three-year program, she got to work with a judge I’m like, that is just, you know, like that’s when you get to explore, right.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Cause your second summer you have to be serious. You have to start thinking about where you want to go after school. But that first summer is so exploratory and the two year program, they didn’t get that. It was definitely difficult. And if you wanted to make it work, you had to make it work for yourself. Nobody was really helping you make that work. So you had to, you know, I know a lot of people who didn’t have their first, their first internship until they decelerated, unfortunately, which is then you’re in your third year looking for your first internship. So, you know, it’s definitely, you know, good and bad.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Yeah. You know, so we had our two year program at my school and that’s how I felt. I felt like they were completely isolated. I felt like they, I couldn’t tell, but I was super active, so I never saw them around. So I was like, I don’t think they’re active. I don’t think they do anything, but I just felt like they were just studying, which I mean is legitimate. But and I’m sure there are plenty of firms that look at that as, okay. They were smart enough and hardworking enough to do the two year program and give them some credit on that. And again, if they have some work experience that probably gives them their resume, a bit of a boost as well. But yeah, it just, it seemed like there was some stuff missing. And I, one of the things that they say is so important about law school is networking and you’re not really networking if you’re not getting out there.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
And like, it’s not only networking with people that you want to be in the future. It’s also networking with your classmates because they are the people who are going to be your referrals in the future. And I remember, I mean, I’m lucky to be very social, but I remember breaking out so, right. So we had our first few semesters where we really didn’t get to do any, like, you know what are they called? Like whatever we wanted to take classes. Right? So mine was intellectual property.
Speaker 1:
Electives.
Speaker 2:
Thank you. I forgot that word. I remember taking like walking into my first elective class and being very social and so, you know, introducing myself to all these people and then that class finished, that was copyright. And then during the class, I became very close friends with the girl, she became the president of our MEALA.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
So media entertainment, arts, law society law association. And I remember we became friends during that class. And then we did an internship together a little later on and in the internship, she became very open with me. And she was like, you know, it was so weird to have these new people come into our classes, essentially, like what we felt like ruining our curve because they were being, you know, because they were maybe a little bit, you know, more intelligent and have to be friendly with them. Like we had negative connotations towards you guys when we first met you and you happen to be very kind. And I liked that. And so we became friendly, but like the majority of the people in the three-year program did not like us two yoear students. They did not, we were not a part of their section, so they didn’t know us and they were being judged against us.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
But like, there was like a lot of animosity just between the two year and a three-year programs, which was like, not necessarily great because these are supposed to be the people that you rely on for connections and referrals and networking in the future. So that was definitely, I mean, I thank my parents every day for me being a social butterfly, because if not, I wouldn’t necessarily have as many legal connections in the field that I do today. So that’s, it’s really important for sure. So, if you’re going to be in a two-year program, make sure you branch out, make sure you talk to everybody in the school, professors that you’re never going to interact with and kids that maybe you see just on the sidelines or something like that. So it’s very important.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Yeah. Yeah. I don’t remember them taking any classes with us. I mean, I was at a big school, so I don’t know, maybe they, in some electives were there and I just didn’t know, but yeah. Yeah. It’s and although I don’t think I would necessarily feel that way, but you know, I’m also just kind of like, I just don’t care about what other people are doing. So, you know,
Speaker 2 (24:39):
That’s a lucky trait. I mean, law school is for any kid listening out there, law school, it was competitive and cutthroat. And I mean, you know, I don’t like to be that way, but a lot of people are that way. So be careful.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Yeah. Yeah. My school cut out a third of the first year class, so we were super competitive.
Speaker 2:
Wow.
Speaker 1:
And, and like I said, so you had that, that a little bit of fear and so forth of who’s going to beat you out, but at the same time. Yeah. I just, I think I just kind of tuned it all out. Just survive, you know, you’ve got to do a job. Yeah. I can,
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Don’t worry about anybody else and things will happen as they’re meant to happen. And so yeah, that whole vibe of like, I don’t like you because you’re from this accelerated program, it just seems so silly to me, but I get it. I do get it. Yeah. So, all right. So any overall just as a kind of a wrap up advice you have for someone who’s debating between a two and three-year program that maybe we haven’t covered yet.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
I think, and I may have covered it a little bit, but I think my biggest piece of advice for somebody who wants to do a two year program is talk to the school and really, you know, don’t let them turn you away when you’re asking these questions because you’re paying their salary. So they should be telling you exactly what this program will be like. You want to ask questions like, will I be hindered when it comes to extracurricular activities, will I be able to join the clinic? Will I be able to join a journal? Will I have any hardship in trying to do these things and make them address those questions before you actually sign up? Because a lot of the times schools are constantly changing within you know, the ABA and with how, law schools are conducted and everything like that.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
So you want to make sure these law schools have definitely thought through these programs because a two year program is now the new thing, right. And a lot of schools are not doing their due diligence before they start these programs. It’s super important that you figure out if these schools have, if the school that you would want to go to if they know their stuff, you want to make sure that you’ll be able, , they have maybe like a mixer between you and the three-year students or something that’s social. So the class that you’re going to graduate with, you want to, be in a program that’s going to set you up for success with not only within the educational field.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
So having great professors teaching you, but you also want to be making sure your law school is one phase. You want to be setting yourself up for success for your future. So do those things that lawyers find important. I mean, maybe be on a journal. I think these days, that’s not necessarily the number one thing, unless you’re trying to go to one of the top firms but clinics are very fun. You want to make sure that you have interactions with other students. So just make sure the school is up to snuff on their two year program. And they know everything that needs to happen for a two year program to succeed. That is my biggest piece of advice.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Sounds great. Thank you so much. If people want it to reach out to you, if they had questions about this, where can they find you
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Best place to find me as my email? You can reach me at my first name, but I’ll spell it because I’m a little unique and I don’t spell it right. It’s Gabriele, but it’s gabriele@mavenip.com. So that’s where you can reach me. And I would welcome any questions, reach out if you need.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Perfect. Thank you so much for all your advice and your time today.
Speaker 2:
Thank you. It’s been so much fun to talk to you.
Speaker 1:
Before we get into my top takeaways. A quick word from our sponsor. Juno, if you have to take out student loans, check in with Juno. First, Juno can often offer law students one to 2% lower interest rates than the federal government and with no origination fees and cash back as well. Visit advisor.legallearningcenter.com/Juno. For more information, my top takeaways from this chat with Gabriele number one, the two year program doesn’t necessarily save you money. It might, but overall it’s really just meant to get you out of law school faster. Number two, as a participant of this type of program, you are going to have less opportunity to intern, network and participate in clubs and organizations. So just keep that in mind.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Number three, in Gabriele’s program, she was taking more units per semester than the average law student. She had a tougher curve and tougher professors. So all of these are just some things to keep in mind and to ask your school about if you’re interested in a two year program, that’s it for this episode, all the links and so forth will be in the show notes. A full transcript will be available at legallearningcenter.com/Gabriele. And if you like this episode, if you learn something today, please be sure to leave a review that helps us reach more ears and will help more students. Thanks.
