Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to the Legal Learning Podcast. I’m your host Jolene. And with the Legal Learning Center, I help prospective law students graduate in less time with less debt and stress. If you want three free strategies right now, visit legallearningcenter.com/money.
And if you’re applying to law school or you’re about to, and you’re looking for that accountability buddy, who knows your schedule and helps you through it, one who can review your personal statement and give you hundreds of thousands of dollars in money saving strategies, stay tuned for the release of Financially Free Aspiring Attorneys and Accountability Course coming in June.
Today, we’re going to hold a one-on-one student counseling session. This is a bit representative of what it’s like to have a one-on-one session with me. I will mention that it is slightly slowed down a bit here because McKayla is debating between a few schools and since nothing is finalized, we want to be a little vague. So that slowed down the conversation a little bit. Normally my one-on-one counseling sessions move pretty fast. There’s a lot of information packed into an hour.
Another thing I want you to be aware of is that all advice is individualized. So certainly you could take this advice and use it as it applies to your situation, but just know that if you and I were to talk, I might have slightly different recommendations or strategies to suggest. Okay. And then finally there were a few things Mikayla and I discussed after the recording, and I will share some of those things after we hang up with McKayla.
Hey Makayla, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 2:
Hi, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:
Okay. So I know we’re going to talk about how to choose between the schools that have accepted you and what to do with your waitlist school. But first I want to go through some of the background information that you gave me. Now, for those at home. When I do one-on-one consulting, I give my students about 40 questions to answer that gives a lot of background information, as well as future goals, so that I can kind of see where students are coming from. What’s influencing them, sometimes influencing them in a bad direction or just to make sure my advice doesn’t go against what they want out of life.
And then also with respect to the future goals, sometimes we think we’re on the right path and we’re just not. So I try to make sure I have all the information to help you guys get where you want to go. So with respect to that first, okay. So you say you are interested in immigration law, entertainment and sports and also international law, is that right?
Speaker 2:
Yes. All over the place.
Speaker 1:
That’s actually good because a lot of people do change their minds once they’re in law school. So it’s good to have a wide field there so that you’re not just tunnel vision. Um, have you done any research with respect to these areas of law?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
I would say the informational interviews that I’ve had with attorneys have been more broad kind of about what it looks like to do kind of private practice and big law versus public interest and more kind of clinic style where you’re helping people pro bono. So I’ve just looked at things broadly because I haven’t really explored what it is obviously like to practice any of these things. So just theoretically on a, on a very surface level, I’ve kind of learned more about what it is like to be in those two different kinds of fields.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Okay. So yes, that’s a great start. My suggestion is get out there, find attorneys who do these areas of law and get very specific with them. What does a typical week look like? What does a typical day look like? What is your typical client, are your clients grateful for the work you do? Are they just angry all the time? You know, who do you have to deal with besides clients? Are your clients professionals or, you know, the average person, because obviously with immigration law, you might be dealing with average people versus international law. You might be dealing with more corporations and so professionals and again, the attitude could go in any direction, right? Sometimes when you’re dealing with professionals, they’re great, they’re professional and sometimes they’re not. So you want to know what you’re dealing with. Especially things like entertainment and sports is very competitive, international law can be very hard to get into.
One tip I do have for you, we’re going to get into the schools that you applied to, but I do know that you are from the LA area and plan to stay here as much as possible, whether it’s for school or just later after school. Southwestern has a program for sports and entertainment and a lot of schools will offer reciprocity. So even though you don’t go to Southwestern, you can take courses at Southwestern and still get credit for them at your law school. So whether that’s, you’re staying in the LA area and you can do that during the semester, or you do it over the summer, that might be an option you want to look into. I know Southwestern also has an international I don’t know if it’s a program, but they have a lot of international offerings. So I would check that out as well and check out with any school you’re interested in what that reciprocity might look like. Definitely get that going. That’s very important because you might knock out one of these areas and then that way you can focus more on what you really want to do. So, okay. Then I know you also mentioned that as of right now, you have a handful of money that you’re planning to spend on, maybe your 2L rent, is that right?
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yes. I’m hoping that my first year, rent will be cheaper, but if I decide to move away from home, I’m definitely going to be spending the majority of my cost of living on a place to live.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Right. Okay. So we’ll get into that too, because it does connect with the schools we’re looking at, but if you don’t need to use that money for your first year, what I would do, there’s a couple of suggestions on how you can spend it. One is to avoid loans. So if you don’t have a full ride somewhere to use that for that money so that you don’t have to incur that debt. Another one is that at the end of law school, most students are a little bit surprised by a bar loan. And so bar loans are private loans. And so if you have enough scholarship money to cover you to the point where you don’t have to take out private loans during law school, you might want to avoid that private loan at the end, that private loan is usually an amount that covers your rent, the bar exam, and your bar review course.
So again, probably somewhere close to a year’s worth of rent. And so that might be something you save it up for so that you don’t have to do that at the end. So a couple of different options there, but okay, so let’s get into this.
So school number one. So we’re going to keep these a little vague since we haven’t accepted any schools yet, and we’re still on a wait list for one school. Number one is in Northern California. And that one, I think let’s see you have a little more than half of a scholarship. So you’re getting, you’re going to have to take out something like $20,000 just for tuition.
Speaker 2:
Right.
Speaker 1:
Okay. And then you have cost of living because you would have to move away from home.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Right. And Northern California is just infamously one of the most expensive places to live.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Right. Okay. So that’s definitely a huge cost consideration. So we know we’re facing 20 grand plus and the un-subsidized, direct loans only cover about $20,000. So you would then be heading into un-subsidized territory, which then accrues interest while you’re in school. So again, that might also be an area where it sounds like you’re already gonna use that money for rent, but you might also, if you do have extra money, again, being up in that expensive area, you may not, but you might want to pay off that accrued interest, even though they defer it for you for the un-subsidized, they actually end up adding it into your principal after you graduate and then you’re paying interest on that interest. So you might want to either avoid that loan or avoid the interest on that loan. Just pay that down as you go. So that’s another option. All right.
So school number two, you have two that are in the LA area and so school number two, we have what, you’ve got almost a full ride, right? You have something like $7,000 that you would have to pay for as far as tuition?
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Uh, tuition, I think all said and done would be around $30,000 in total, by the time I graduate, I’ll only have $30,000 in loans or tuition.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Got it. Okay. So over three years, that one, we have $30,000. Okay. And that one you could live at home potentially?
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Um, yeah, it’s up in the air on if I’ll be able to live in live at home and how long, but…
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Okay. So that’s a maybe, so there might be some additional costs there. Okay. The next school, how much student loans would you have after three years?
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Mm, 60 plus $60,000 plus.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Okay. So that one’s going to be a lot more expensive. So is there a reason that you would choose that school over the other ones?
Speaker 4 (09:42):
Um, the one with more debt is ranked higher and the most, the most recent ranking that came out, it shot up and the other schools went down. So in comparison to ranking, that’s really kind of what I’m concerned about. But when you also look into like average salary upon graduation, it’s not that different so kind of taking into both factors if I were to choose that school would probably be because of ranking but I don’t know really how much of a difference that will make ultimately.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Right. There is a lot to be said for alumni networking. And like you said, employment rates, and these rankings, I don’t think any of them are super, you know, we’re not talking dramatic numbers here. We’re not talking about you’re jumping down 50 spots or anything like that. So I don’t think overall, this is going to impact you too much. So what would impact your life more? I think in your ability to work exactly where you want to work would be that debt load. So, you know, the difference of like $20,000 in debt versus $60,000 in debt, and that’s just tuition, we’re not even talking about housing that can make a big difference in your life. So that’s something to definitely keep in mind, so. Okay.
And you have one more school? Well, we have two more schools, but one that you are wait-listed on. Right. Okay. So it sounds like that one probably not going to get any money or maybe just like, you know, a drop in the bucket. Right. Okay. So then you also got accepted to an out-of-state school that you’re just not interested in, right?
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Yes. Yeah. I applied to it cause I am interested in this state, but they also did not give me nearly enough to even consider moving out there.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Right. And I know that between wanting to return to LA for the most part. And then also, you mentioned you do have a significant other that’s in the, you know, Southern California area and his families or their family is also in Southern California. So you have a lot of influences in the Southern California area and that does make a big difference. So we’re talking about primarily one school in the Northern California area, which would not be a big transition to come back down and then, three schools that are in the Southern California area. So it sounds like you’ve got some really good choices in California, you don’t really need to go out of state. So while I do tell people to keep their options open, I think you’re fine. So, all right. Now, as far as the one that you’re waitlisted for, how are you feeling about that? I mean, would you want to go and pay full price at that school?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
I think, just the significant difference in tiers. It’s going from a one tier to a second tier. It would make a difference for me, academically, maybe not so much. I think I can find great academics wherever I go, but just in terms of what my capabilities might be or, opportunities at OCI or just beyond and the network. I think I would be really happy at the school, the location too. I’m used to it and I’ve been there, I’ve lived there. So in, in terms of that, I think it would be a really easy transition, cause I’m kind of familiar with how the school works and everything but yeah, it’ll still be a huge decision to make. I’m giving it my all to get off of it, just so I know that I can have that option, but it’ll really just come down to, how soon they let me know and how far I am into my other school.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Right. That’s the thing. If you’re moving to Northern California, you should probably set in your mind a date for this waitlist school to let you know, because you moving is a big deal, right? Finding housing is a big deal. It’s all difficult. So you want to make sure that you’ve got enough time that you don’t go into law school stressed. That’s the last thing you want. And I believe me, I’ve seen it happen and it doesn’t go well.
So make sure that when you make that transition, that it’s a smooth transition. So, have that firm date. And even if you do hear from them after that, I mean, of course you’re welcome to change your mind, but it would be best if you had that kind of set in your mind. Like, no, I accept this. This is what I’m doing. So that again, you just feel a little more free. So I think the hardest thing is when students go into a law school jumbled, so there’s no time or space for that. Now as far as these other three schools, so, okay, so you have the potential to save something like $10-15,000 a year by living at home, if you can. Right. But I think for you also, even the local schools, if you’re living at home, are quite a commute as well. Right?
Speaker 2 (14:56):
One wouldn’t be so bad. Um, that other one, I don’t think it’d be possible to commute. The one with more debt, I would have to move closer to that school. And it also is a very expensive area. So it would just be probably a plethora over $60,000 to be honest.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah. And I believe now this obviously doesn’t necessarily hinder the students there, but they are a bit remotely located as well. So there is always a commute, even if you are interning and things like that. So it’s something to keep in mind because it does just impact your overall schedule and your lifestyle and all of that.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Nice to have that rank and I’m not saying don’t go for it, but it’s just something to consider. And when you look at debt loads, even with informational interviews, if you can ask the attorneys how much debt did you graduate with, you can give them different numbers and say, you know, what do you think of entering this field with, you know, $80,000 in debt with a hundred thousand dollars in debt with $20,000 in debt and that kind of thing, to get them more, to pull out and share maybe their experience and even maybe their numbers so that they can tell you, look, the starting salary here is $50,000 and yeah, it’ll go up at some point. But you know, in the meantime you’re paying back a hundred thousand, that’s not a good number, that kind of thing.
And so again, that might shave off that area of interest for you, or again, might make you choose a different school. So all things to know in advance, but it’s really hard to know unless you really specifically ask people in the area where you want to go. Also usually the schools have alumni picked out for you to call and talk to, so you can always call and ask them. The only problem with that is they’re usually, you know, handpicked. So for a reason, right? So they’re going to say amazing things about the school most of the time, and they may not be the most candid. So if you have certain places that you would like to work and can find attorneys there, it’s really good to know what they think about each of these schools as well, because sometimes students are really surprised that it has absolutely nothing to do with rank.
And in fact, they prefer people from a different school, this lower rank because of a certain reason, whatever it is or maybe that firm at that time is completely filled with a certain school. And I certainly know I’ve experienced it in different firms where schools that are very low ranked have a big funnel to certain firms because they just bring in their own and we all get the same education more or less. So it’s, it’s just more a matter of how do they prepare you for the bar, I think, and how do they do those employment things. There’s a bit more to some of the other schools in that sense. So yeah. So I would ask around, make sure that you’re really going where it’s going to get you where you want to go.
Straight numbers wise, it looks like the one LA school is your best bet because, the one that’s closest to home, you could take out the least amount of loans as far as direct tuition, but also you could live at home for that first year. And then on top of that, even if you couldn’t, you could choose a wide variety of neighborhoods to live from that are centrally located as far as the school, as far as internships and all of that. And then just with respect to your personal lifestyle as well, it’s well, centrally located. So, again, I’m not telling you to go there, but just keep that in mind. I think it’s important to repeat to yourself the factors that are, you know, that all influenced that. I mean, obviously we don’t want our family and our friends to influence us completely, but yeah, if you go up North, you have, what is it? It was $20,000. I think it was in loans per year. Is that right?
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Tuition so not including cost of living.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Right. So that’s so it sounds like, yes. So it sounds like the more remote LA one and that one up there are going to be somewhat equalish as far as just you’re going to be up there and that debt load, and it really does limit your choices. And especially if you have burnout or you decide you actually, don’t like an area of law and you want to switch your income’s going to jump down again and you can’t necessarily afford that when you’re paying a couple of hundred thousand in student loans. So keep it in mind because it does add up quickly and the money you’ve saved will go so fast. It’ll make your head spin. So yes, I saved up for two years and it, yes, it helped, but man, it went fast. So, if you can at all use that money to not take out loans for a bit, that would be great.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Well, that’s the thing too. I’m like, I want to of course balance my school life first. School is going to come first. Definitely. But if I stay local to LA I can keep my serving job and do that on the weekends or when I have free time. Cause they’re very flexible. They just, they love the help. So I could have potentially money for just the extra things in life if I were to stay at home.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Yeah. Depending on the school. Have you talked to any of the schools about or read any policies from the schools about ability to work during 1L year?
Speaker 2 (20:40):
I think it’s capped at a certain amount of time.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Okay. Because I know some schools absolutely forbid it, which I’m not sure exactly how manage that, but then other schools, they don’t want you to do it, that kind of thing. So it just depends, but I know some 1L students who have no problem balancing, after a few weeks they get their rhythm and they’re fine handling a few hours a week and others like me, there’s no way, there’s just no way.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yeah. I have no idea which, which type of student I’ll be yet.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Yeah, it’s always best to just plan on not working, but then if you have something lined up, that’s great because if they’re willing to just take you here and there or over the holidays or whatever, that’s great. That’s ideal, honestly. So would you also be able to do that over the summer if you were to stay local and work over the summer and stuff like that too?
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Um, yeah, definitely. I, are you talking about when I’m in law school or before law school starts if possible? I would definitely prioritize whatever internship I would hope to be getting and depending on where that is and how many hours per week it is. But, definitely if I can make whatever income I can over the summer, in addition to an internship, I would be ecstatic about that.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yes. Cause not all internships are paid and then, sometimes, depending on how many hours or how much energy you have or, whatever your goals are, it’s always nice to have that extra money. So. Okay. So what I’m seeing here is we’ve got three schools that are good options for you. We have one that’s on the wait list. We have one that has an amazing financial package for you. And two that are decent. They’re just, they leave you with a lot of debt as well.
So I think the plan is, go ahead, write out how much student loan debt you would have from each school, write out how much rent you think, you know, cost of living, you think you would have from each school, go ahead and write out. Any other expenses you think might be incurred because of location, such as traveling to see your significant other or your family, that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
So just make sure it’s all there as best you can, and then do more informational interviews with people from the areas of law you’re interested in and you know, specifically how much can you make as a starting attorney? How quickly does that income go up? Are there better ways to do those areas of law versus, you know, private versus in-house or something like that, so that you can really compare those salaries and then also talk to graduates from the schools that you’re looking at, as far as employability and again, income and things like that, or how are these schools matched with these industries? And that might also help you because it may be worth additional debt to go to a school because they really want people from that one school, you know, not just the one from you’re talking to, but they know in the industry that people from that school do really well in that field or whatever, and make good money.
But for the most part, you’re going to have more options in life if you have less debt. So keep that in mind too and less stress. Especially if you’re staying in LA, LA housing prices, it’s hard to afford a mortgage when you’re already paying a mortgage. So you can’t really save up that down payment. If you have extensive student loans and everyone says, Oh, I’ll just suffer for a few years. I’ll work in big law and I’ll pay them down. And that rarely happens. So, or if you’re working in big law, your expenses go up because you don’t have time to cook, you don’t have time to clean. You don’t have time to walk the dog. So you’re paying people to do all these things for you, clean your house, walk your dog, you know, make your food. I mean, it’s just, it adds up. So that big law salary, isn’t always what it seems either. So keep that in mind as well. Okay. Do you have any last questions for me?
Speaker 2:
I think we’ve, we’ve covered everything that I was wondering about.
Speaker 1:
Okay. All right. Don’t forget to set that deadline date for the wait list school so that hopefully you can make a firm and clear decision in your own mind and feel comfortable and at peace with it. I know it’s hard, so. All right. Good luck.
Speaker 2:
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
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All right. So my top takeaways from this chat with Makayla, number one, just remember that rank is only one factor when you’re comparing schools, really try to keep that in mind. Number two, when trying to determine if an area of law is right for you, do a bunch of informational interviews. Number three, when trying to determine how much debt to take on consider how much you’re going to make in the area of law that you’re interested in. Number four, pick a final date to come off of a wait list. If you haven’t heard from a school by that date, it’s really hard to move right before school starts. You don’t want to start off on the wrong foot. So pick a date and try and stick to that
Bonus round. So what were some of the things that Makayla and I discussed off the record? Well, one thing was you can always appeal for more money. So the school that she almost had a full ride to, she could potentially get a full ride or for the schools that were more expensive, maybe she could try to make it where it’s a little more affordable. Number two, she can send a letter of continued interest to the waitlist school that lets them know that she really is still interested in it. And number three Financially Free Aspiring Attorneys is available starting in June. And that is a course with hundreds of thousands of dollars in money saving tips. If she applies a handful of those tips, she could save thousands tens, or even maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars on law school.
So again, one of those higher ranked schools, she might be able to afford for the same price as what she was looking to pay for the one that was offering her a lot of money. So she wouldn’t even have to choose maybe between rank and money.
Next week, we’re going to chat with Angela Vorpahl. She has a very successful YouTube channel and she helps prospective law students in a similar, but totally different way than the Legal Learning Center. So stay tuned to find out how she can help you. That’s it for this episode, all the tips, links and transcript will be available@legallearningcenter.com/macayla. And if you enjoyed this episode, please like share comment, subscribe, leave a review that just helps us show be more visible to others and help those who may need it. Thanks.
