Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the legal learning podcast. I’m your host Jolene. And with the legal learning center, I help prospective law students save $300,000 on law school. If you’d like to ensure you are remembering everything that goes into applying to law school, visit legal learning center.com for a free law school application checklist. Today’s guest is Elizabeth lippy. She’s a trial attorney and a trial advocacy professor at a law school. She’s going to explain why this is probably the most important class for every student, even if you have no interest in being a trial attorney.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Hi Jolene. Hi everybody. My name is Elizabeth lippy and I am the director of trial advocacy at temple law school. Also a professor of law there as well as an owner of a business culture, trial, advocacy, consulting, and training. I call it tact for short TCT. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Thank you so much for coming on here. I’m so excited. This is a topic that I think is so important because for me as a law student, I saw zero value in it. So I think it’s important for especially prospective law students and even law students to really hear where the value is in this course or in this general topic. Especially because I only more recently learned that at most law schools it’s an elective, whereas at my school it was required. And so that is the only reason I took it. I wanted nothing to do with litigation, so I highly recommend everyone take this course, but Liz first, why don’t you tell us what is trial advocacy?
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Yeah, I wish it had a very succinct definition, but it doesn’t. So bear with me as I kind of try to define this. So trial advocacy courses teach the art of being a trial attorney. So the art of communicating in a courtroom and persuading the jury, the typical trial advocacy course teaches how to try a jury trial. So from start to finish in a jury trial, including body or in some classes an opening statement, questioning the witness, both direct and cross examination, dealing with objections and evidence and the issues that come up on the fly. And of course closing arguments. So that’s basically your typical trial advocacy class, at least the beginners. So a lot of law schools, including temple have advanced courses that are focused on one skill or dive a little bit deeper, for example, into evidence and into objecting and how to respond to those objections. So it’s the course that really prepares you to become an advocate in any forum, whether it be arbitration mediation, a jury trial, which has given COVID has been somewhat less and less nowadays, but it’s the, it’s the class that has the practical application of the one L doctrinal courses that every law student has to take.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
I think it’s also almost necessary to graduate from law school with having taken this course, just because how can you say you went to law school and not really have even practiced at all these trial skills again, even if you don’t want to go into trial. I just think you have to at least say, I kind of tried that out. I did that a little bit.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Not only that Julie, but the bar exam is everybody’s like kryptonite, right? We’re all terrified of the bar exam and evidence in particular is one of the major subjects that’s tested. So a lot of my students, the light doesn’t really click with regards to the rules of evidence until they put it into use. So not only do trial advocacy courses provide you with the communication skills that are necessary in a courtroom or in a legal forum like that. But I think that these courses also help you actually put into context some of the dark triangle lessons that you’re going to learn as well now, and especially with regards to evidence. And it helps with the bar exam preparation when you actually understand the rules and understand the different subject matters that are tested.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Yeah. I know it really, really hit home for me while I was studying for the bar exam. I was taking a study break and I watched the Rainmaker with Matt Damon. Have you ever seen that movie?
Speaker 2 (04:23):
I actually maybe like many, many moons ago jelly and I’d be we’re dating ourselves here. Yeah,
Speaker 1 (04:29):
It was exactly trial advocacy. It was like, I think he was a recent graduate and he was kind of thrown into a trial and he was making all the evidentiary mistakes, all the objection, mistakes, you know, he made an objection and they’re like, what are you objecting to? And he’s like, I don’t know, kind of a thing, but it’s nice to kind of be able to do that in a classroom setting and really just go through all those motions in a safe space for
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Sure. And I, I make a big point of that, right? So any law school setting, as opposed to a real life setting when somebody, you know, your client’s life is in Liberty may be at stake, or if you’re a prosecutor, maybe the governments like the community safety might be at stake, or if it’s a civil case, millions of dollars at stake, you know, there’s so much more pressure in the real world. So in the law school community and the law school class, I always joke that, Hey, nobody’s going to jail, nobody’s going to get hurt. This is your opportunity to try and to get that individualized feedback from adjuncts faculty members who have years and years of experience to be able to actually learn these skills and learn what you’re doing well, and then fix what you’re not doing so well. And I will say one of the additional benefits for many trial advocacy classes is what I just mentioned, right? The people who teach them so networking in law school is extremely important. And I’m sure you have many, many podcasts about it and talk about it with a lot of your clients and future law students being taught by a lot of the trial advocacy adjuncts creates a relationship with some judges, practitioners in the area and the sky’s the limit with the networking aspect of it, which I think people often overlook when you have these types of classes that are kind of electives and a lot of law schools that you can take.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
I never really thought of an adjunct professor in that way. I mean, of course they have a full-time outside, whatever job in general, but yeah, I never thought of that as expanding my network beyond the law school.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Oh, it’s a huge benefit because they want you to succeed. They want you as one of their former students to go back and say, oh, I had professor so-and-so for my trial ed and reach out and say, Hey, would you be willing to vouch for me and give me a letter of recommendation. Do you have any connections at this office? You’d be surprised if you tap into that network, how willing they are to help you as law students. But I think it’s an amazing networking opportunity. That’s often overlooked.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Yeah. I think also trial ad the class can be such a confidence booster. You know, I mean, again, I was not interested, but I did really well in the class. And so it really just, I don’t know, gave me a sense of security, a sense of accomplishment, even though I didn’t want to pursue it. But then years later when I ended up in a highly litigious trial, proactive area of law, I did have that just slight comfort that, Hey, when I took the class, I did pretty well. So I should be okay. You know, I’m I might be okay.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yeah. I mean, I’m not gonna lie to your listeners and say that there’s times though, Jolene, that I’m sure you’ve probably also felt like, oh my gosh, I don’t know what I’m doing. Right. So, you know, there’s, there’s the both sides of the fence there. You’re going to get the positive feedback for sure. But our job when we teach this class, isn’t to just tell you everything that you’re doing, right. So there is an aspect of kind of constructive criticism that goes along with it. And sometimes it’s hard to hear and you need to make sure that you have an open mind, but again, as we already mentioned, that’s a safe space. And if you’re being told that there are certain things that you can try and do differently, what better way to do it when there’s nothing at stake? Except for maybe a grade.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
So a lot of trial advocacy classes though, some, some law schools, including temple they’re pass fail. So you don’t necessarily, you don’t negatively impact your GPA. If it’s a pass fail class and you put yourself out there and you try new things, as long as you do the hard work. And for those schools that actually have like a grading system for the trial advocacy classes, I think it’s a great booster most of the time. So it’s a very subjective class, meaning I could come into the class with a ton of talent, ton of natural talents, and there could be another student that may not be a naturally good, and they’re not going to be penalized for that. You’re going to necessarily be benefit from the work that goes into it. And we, as professors can see through the people who try to like not do the work right, the way that I personally score my students and grade my students is I want to see the improvement from the beginning of the semester to the end. So even if you’re not the best speaker in the world, that the birthday one, are you listening to the feedback from me as a professor, are you incorporating it into your next presentation? That’s more important to me than somebody who’s the best order investigator and speaker in the world.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
That’s great. And yeah, I, I definitely felt, I think, first of all, I think I took away confidence from that because I had no interest. So it was like, cool. I did that well. And any criticisms didn’t matter to me because I wasn’t going to do it again. So that’s probably why my memory is like, I did amazing in there, but yeah, it definitely was a nice break as well because all of your classes are just you sitting there and okay, today I get called on or whatever versus this is actually, you’re standing up, you’re moving around. And even if you know that day, maybe you’re not participating. You’re like your teammate is doing it or whatever. You’re still, I don’t know an active part of the room instead of just sitting there.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
I cannot like accentuate that even more than what you just did. So for me, one L year was exhausting, difficult, hard transition from, from college to law school. Like I had to think a different way. And there was so much reading, so much writing involved that it was like a breath of fresh air. When I personally took my first trial advocacy class. Cause it was like, this is fun. Like you actually get to then, like you said, purchase a bait, get up on your feet, ask questions of a witness and deal with the things that come at you that you don’t necessarily expect. Right. I love dealing with the unexpected. Some of us might not. But there are still tricks and, and formulas and things of that sort to make sure that even you’re even prepared for what you cannot prepare for. So yes, it’s a huge difference from a lot of the doctrinal classes that law students take. And I consider it a breath of fresh air and so much fun
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Along those lines. That’s exactly what happened to me was there was a theory on the case, we, my teammates and I, for this one witness, we could only come up with three questions. There’s three of us. We didn’t know how to handle this because normally we’d each go up and ask a handful of questions. So we said, okay, it’s going to look stupid, but we’ll each go up and ask one question each. And I mean, it feels dumb to stand up at the podium, ask a question and go sit back down. But we were like, how else can we do this? Right? And so we just, that was our agreement. My lovely teammate gets up there and ask all three questions. And it’s like, okay, now it’s going to look like we didn’t do the work. I mean, I’m sure the professor knew, but like, so the professor asked us, do you have any more questions?
Speaker 1 (11:57):
And of course my teammates says no, because we didn’t. And I said, I have questions. Why do I say this? I don’t know. I just didn’t like sitting there. So I get up and I’m like, I have zero thoughts in my head. I really don’t know what I’m asked is going to ask this person. And then I just started asking questions. And after class, the professor was like, where did you come up with this theory? And I wasn’t even sure I had a theory. Right. I was just asking questions. And I’m like, I don’t know, these questions just came to me. And he’s like, that is a theory that students only get once every few years. And I was like, oh, okay. So yeah, it was
Speaker 2 (12:38):
For you. And I’m not surprised to hear that though, because like, here you are, you’re doing a podcast and you’re asking people questions like me. Right. So what this is, is a direct examination. Like you are asking me as your witness on the witness, stand the questions about your particular subject matter that you’re interviewing me about. So I’m not surprised to hear that you had a natural ability to actually do that and ask the questions and have this crazy theory, or maybe not so crazy theory that the professor didn’t see very often. But it may have even benefited you to become now this podcast host, to be able to have that skill under your belt that you learned in law school.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Yeah. It definitely taught me to not be afraid to think outside the box, to not be afraid, to just try things. And to not doubt myself so much, you know? So when I did, I spent 15 years in workers’ comp and sometimes I would propose theories on cases and people were like, you know, that’s not the law. And I’m like, well, how does law get made? We make the law. So you know what, I’m going to ask these questions, even though technically today, it’s not relevant for this case, but this case has been dragging out for like 10 years. If it dries out another 10 years, it might become relevant. So, and people are looking at me like you’re wasting time. No, I’m not. I’m, I’m preparing for the future. So, you know, but it’s, yeah, I’ve heard many times that I was good at deposition and I used to doubt it. You know, I was like, I don’t know what you’re talking about. I’m just an average depo tape taker. And, but again, I think it goes into the podcast. It’s just a skill that apparently I think I’ve recognized now I do have so
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Sure. Absolutely. And I think one of the number one skills that we teach and trail advocacy, believe it or not is not just how to communicate, how to listen. So listening effectively in a courtroom or any given forum, I believe is one of the most important skills. And it’s a hard skill, especially like when you’re, cross-examining a witness, which is my jam. It wasn’t my jam in law school. But now that I’ve done criminal defense work for a long time, I love cross-examining. Cause it’s more of like me being the star of the show and asking the questions of the witness and trying only get a yes or no answer. So with that go, you have to be a good listener because if fitness goes off track or if your interviewee goes off track, then you’re gonna have to listen and be like, oh gosh, what’s my next question? Where am I going next? So believe it or not. One of the main skills that I think students take away from trial advocacy courses is the ability to listen, which applies in any thing that we do as a lawyer. So client intake interviews, as you just mentioned, depositions, talking to your partner, especially as a new associate, being able to hear what it is your partners want and listen to the needs of your clients. I think it’s an extremely valuable tool.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
That’s funny, you said the client intake because as soon as you start talking about that, I thought of a client intake where the insurance adjuster clearly wasn’t listening to the full story and this was a dedicated economy. So when the client got to me and retold the story, I was like, wait a minute. That’s not in the adjuster notes. That’s important. And that could change the entire way we handle this case. So yeah, listening is it’s a hundred percent. Yeah, exactly. Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
And I just want to mention too, so beyond the trial advocacy class, what I personally do a lot of in law schools is trained students for trial competitions. So I don’t know if you’re aware of the landscape where those that are listening are actually interested in being a trial attorney, but there are different fields, three different fields that are applicable to mock trial. So that’s the jury trial system moot courts. So that’s like the appellate arguments. So you would be arguing, writing a brief and then making the arguments on appeal as if you lost the trial or maybe one of the trial and you’re defending the case and dispute resolution. So that’s more of a mediation arbitration. So if you’re really interested in this particular field of the law student, there are advanced opportunities of competing against other law schools. It’s this amazing experience. It’s a small group, right? So I usually train about four students at a time to go and compete against other wall schools across the country. And it w I did it in law school myself. I’ve been doing it ever since I graduated from law school from coaching perspective. And it’s the most rewarding and fulfilling experience that I had on the law student. And now as a law professor, I absolutely love doing the coaching of these competitions.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
I think that those things are more important. This is just my perspective. Of course, then like journal law review because you don’t do a whole lot of research. I mean, you do some, but not a whole lot of research and writing. It’s usually kind of concise. And to the point, I guess, versus if you’re going into a trial heavy field, you need those trial skills alternative dispute resolution. I mean, that goes across all now how much you may use. It just depends, but it’s a great skill. And there’s entire people who have that just as their career, they’re just, you know, the mediators and that kind of thing. And, and same thing, the appellate, there are attorneys who specialize just in appellate work. It’s I just feel like so much more practical to what is out there or more broadly available to people to do. So
Speaker 2 (18:14):
100% and I, and don’t get me wrong. It’s a ton of work. So, so as law review and I personally was not on a law review when I was in law school funny story I picked up, so there was a right on competition. So I picked up like a five inch packet of paperwork after one L year was over and you know, was going to get started. Cause we had two weeks to do the write on. I picked the up and I was so drained after my one L year that I threw it in the trash immediately. And I was like, okay, so that’s not happening because I know myself and I’m good. I’m going to practice self forgiveness and not to the right on. And I’m going to put all my eggs into the trial team basket. Thankfully it worked out for me.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
And candidly, as an employer myself, I would be more interested in a law student who has that trial team experience or moot court or ADR experience. Then I would as a large review article writer. So it may differ in big law from everything that I see. I think that they may be more interested in you being on a law review than being on a competition team. But the experience that you get is like none other. And I think that many employers kind of look for that and are interested in somebody who is willing to put in that extra time.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
I agree. I think that big law might be its own little basket there, but most industries want you to have some practical skills, some hands-on skills. And that’s one of the biggest complaints is law school doesn’t teach us anything practical and yet trial ad is there and it is so practical. All right. So are there any major mistakes that you see from students in the trial ad?
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Yes. A lot of them one I see that people are not as confident in who they are and they try to become somebody else. And I was just telling this story yesterday to somebody, to another colleague, even when I was in law school, right. My first tryout for trial team I had in my mind what a trial lawyer should look like right. Being female trial attorney and however many of them 10 years ago. And so here I am, I walk into the first round of the tryouts and I have my hair slicked back in a bun so that my hair is not in my face and wearing my glasses. So I look smarter like minimal makeup, super conservative clothes. None of this is me, as you can see. Right. So I go in and I do my tryouts and then I get called back for the second round and I was actually called into the Dean’s office.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
And I was terrified. I was like, why am I getting called into the Dean’s office before my next round of auditions? Like, what did I do wrong? So she was like, the director of temple at the time was male. And he asked her to have a conversation with me and told me, you know, can you put your hair down? Can you dress a little less conservatively? Can you like, you know, I see how you dress right now when you’re just normally in a class. Why, why did you look like that? I was like, what do you mean? You want to see the offset? Like you want to see the real man. I thought I had to turn into somebody else when I walked into a courtroom. And so, you know, I did the second round of tryouts and I looked more like this, more like comfortable in myself.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
And I made the team. And so I think what I see from a lot of people is that you come into a class, you have a conversation with a student and they’re delightful. They’re fun. They’re, they’re energetic, they’re themselves uncomfortable. And then the moment they actually turn into, while yourself doing a direct or an opening, or what have you, he turns to somebody else like, wait, where does that personality go? Like who, where did your Hugo? So that’s one of the biggest things that I see happening at first. And it kind of takes awhile to get people to understand their true voice and to use that true voice in the courtroom setting.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Yeah. I’ve seen that in practice. I had a trial where my witness was very, very nervous and in workers’ comp it’s a bench trial and we’re kind of more like in conference rooms. So I try to tell them like, it’s a small room. We all just sit next to each other. I mean, there is the little bit of formality with, you know, who speaks when and that kind of thing, but it’s going to be okay. And I said, you know, opposing counsel is very nice. So he’s just going to ask you some questions and it’ll be all right. Well, opposing counsel does have a deep, booming voice, but it’s a small room. Right. We get in there and he starts to do his cross of my witness and just is attacking him, has this even bigger voice. And I just was like, who are you?
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Where did you come from? I told my client, you were nice, you know, and he’s accusing him of embezzlement and this is a work comp injury. Like, you know what I mean? Like it was just like, I mean, you know, luckily I have my objections, right. Relevance. So, yeah. But it was just like, who are you and why it’s so unnecessary. But yeah, it’s when I was in law school, my moot court opposite was ex military. So she was standing so rigid. And when they gave us our critiques afterwards, they were like, you know, you can relax. You don’t have to stand at attention. And like, you know, she was full out. I, I think I don’t, I have nobody recently in my family in military, so I don’t know the post it’s like the relaxed pose, but for military, which is not relaxed. So it was just like, yeah, you did look pretty stiff. So yeah. I, I agree. That makes a lot of sense because especially if you do have a jury trial, you want people to find you personable and relatable. So that it’s a little bit more of a trusting relationship of maybe what they’re saying is real. Maybe I should listen to what their side of the story is.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Well, absolutely. And if you’re not genuine, then people can see through that. Right? Like if, if, if it’s natural for me to have that stiff posture, because you were in the military, embrace it Sophia. Right. Well, maybe you want to address it in the opening or something. And just be like, you know, forgive me. I I’d stand direct because I was in the military for 10 years. Please don’t hold that against my client. You know, I lean into a lot of what I am at this point when I do jury trials. So for example, you can’t tell zoom and this, but I’m six feet tall without the heels. So when I wear my heels and I am courtroom ready, I’m like six, four, right? Depending on how comfortable I feel in those heels. And I can be intimidating as all get out. Right. And I know that going into a courtroom.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
And so I have to kind of lean into it and talk about it sometimes and just embrace the facts that I know that sometimes I’m going to come across harsh. And I don’t mean to, it’s just, I’m so passionate about this case. And it’s so unfair that my client has been charged with a crime. He did not commit. So, you know, I kind of use what I know people perceive me as to my benefit now, because I have leaned into who I am and I’ve learned that. Whereas I just think that people are a little afraid when they’re in law school to put themselves out there, it’s, it’s scary to be vulnerable. And that’s a lot of people’s fears and even becoming a trial attorney in the first place. Like, that’s scary, you know, you see it on TV. I can’t do law and order. It’s not really like that anyway. But you know, I think that being vulnerable is scary. No matter what the field, no matter what area of your life.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Yeah. It is. And then doing it in front of a public is yes. And even if it’s a smaller public, even if it’s a bench trial, so there’s no jury, you’re still in front of these experts and it can be very scary yeah. To be yourself.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yeah. Well, and judges, I think were even more intimidating than fury.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Yeah. Because they actually know what they’re doing. You know what I mean? The jury won’t
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Know. Okay. Yes. I was gonna say, maybe not all of them, sorry, judges out there. I didn’t mean that.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
But yeah, the jury, I mean, there’s a lot of things that they don’t know you’re messing up on because you know, they’ve never maybe done this before, so yeah. There is a little bit of leeway there. All right. So if people want to learn more about trial advocacy, I know you have a clubhouse room. So what is that clubhouse room?
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Yeah, so I have through my company, so tact, trial skills, I’m clubhouse. So it’s trial, advocacy, consulting and training. I host a weekly Friday forum at 3:00 PM. It’s been a little inactive cause I had some vacation time recently. But every Friday at three book for me, and we talk about some of the skills and necessary trial advocacy skills that are needed right now, the most pressing issue currently is postcoded courtroom. Ready to be honest with you because it’s a whole new landscape. If you have to wear a mask in a courtroom because there’s so much, I think that’s lost in your advocacy. So that’s actually one of the challenges that I’m overcoming currently, even with teaching trial at, at temple is how are we going to continue to teach everybody these skills when you’re masked? And you can only see half of somebody’s face, but that’s the reality of what we’re looking at right now in post COVID courtroom practice, particularly with the Delta variants. So lots of conversations on Fridays at 3:00 PM Eastern standard time. Follow me on Instagram, it’s at tax lawyer. And I’m happy to give my email address out if anybody wants to contact me directly@eopattemple.edu.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Wow. Thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate all your wisdom and advice.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
It has been so much fun. Jolene. I could talk trial and easy for hours. So I do encourage your audience. If you do have any other questions or interests, please don’t feel hesitant to reach out to me. I’m all about making sure that our future lawyers are empowered. So thank you.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Before we get into my top takeaways it quick word from our sponsor. Juno, if you need to take out student loans, check in with Juno. First, Juno can often offer law students one to 2% lower interest rates than the federal government and with no origination fees and oftentimes cash back as well. Visit advisor.legal learning center.com forward slash Juno. For more information, my top takeaways from this chat with Liz, number one, trial advocacy class trained you to be an advocate in any capacity. Number two, trial advocacy is also the class with the most practical application. And this is also a class where you have a good opportunity to expand your professional network. That’s it. For this episode, a full transcript will be available@legallearningcenter.com for slash tact T a C T next week. We’re going to have somewhat of a part two to this episode. Reena cook is a voice coach, and she’s going to share with us how using your voice properly can suede juries and help our careers in countless ways. As always, if you enjoyed the show, please subscribe, like share, leave a review that just helps us help more people. Thanks.
