Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the legal learning podcast. I’m your host Jolene. And with the legal learning center, I help prospective law students save $300,000 on law school. If you’d like three money strategies today, visit legal learning center.com forward slash money. Are you thinking that maybe you just want your JD? Not really sure you actually want to be a lawyer. Maybe you’re interested in business politics, something like that today. I’m joined by Tony Jaeger, fine from Fordham university, and we’re going to discuss the master of studies of law program. This is a separate program from law school that may be a better fit for those who are looking for a J D alternative self.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Julian. Thanks so much. It’s a great pleasure and honor to be here. My name is Tony Jaeger fine, and I’m an assistant Dean at Fordham law school in New York city. I’m also the author of a number of books. The one I really care about the most is one on professionalism. So that’s a topic that’s near and dear to my heart.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Oh, that’s a very important topic. Yes. All right. And so the reason I had you on today is because you have a program at your school that I think a lot of law students or pre-loss students don’t really know about. And in fact, I actually didn’t hear about it for a very long time. And that’s, I believe it’s called the master of legal studies, right?
Speaker 2 (01:24):
So Jolene, it’s not surprising that you never heard of it until recently because it’s a fairly new degree and we don’t see it at too many schools. It’s often known as an MSL, a master of studies in law. Some schools call it a master of science, of law, a master of legal studies, a Juris master, master of jurisprudence master in law. So there’s a good reason. It’s not very it’s not a very sort of well-established degree yet, but I think it’s growing in currency and importance.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Yeah. As soon as I first heard about it, I did a little research and found that yes, it is at several schools. I don’t know how many, but like you said, I saw MLS. I saw MSL. So it makes sense that I was a little confused. So what is this degree for?
Speaker 2 (02:13):
So it’s a good question. And I think lots of people will be listening to this and thinking, wow, this is a shortcut to a JD. And I, well, I want to sort of set that aside right now. It’s not a shortcut to a JD. It’s a one-year full-time program, perhaps in some states and some schools it’s a little bit longer, it doesn’t lead to a degree that gives you a license to practice law, but it’s great for people who, whose work needs some knowledge, some background in the law. So just to give you an example at Fordham, we have a MSL in compliance and we have one in fashion law. And so people, usually the people that come to these programs are people who were already professionals in the fashion business or in the world of corporate compliance. And they understand that it would be really, really helpful for them to have certain skills and certain knowledge about the law, but it does not lead to a licensed to practice or licensed to kill, as we say.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Yeah, it sounds amazing because there are a lot of people who go to law school with really no direct intent to practice law. They just kind of want that law degree. Maybe they want to go into politics or something legal adjacent, and they feel like the best way to get into that career path is having that JD. So is that a little bit what that masters is for?
Speaker 2 (03:33):
I would urge people to think of it in a slightly different way. So I think you’re right. I’ve heard this my whole life that you should go to law school because even if you don’t want to be a lawyer, it’s, it’s going to be great for whatever you want to do. And I think there’s some truth to that. And to the extent that you really become deeply analytic, as you know, when you go through law school, you don’t. I mean, I remember when I went to law school, my first year I went home for Thanksgiving and I was a completely different person. I was thinking about things in really weird ways. My parents wanted to kill me already. I think you really improve your writing skills and your professionalism skills when you go, when you get the JD. And I think people have a certain level of respect for J D holders.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
So that even if I, with my JD decided to go into business, it would be, it wouldn’t be an MBA, but it would be a degree that would be recognized and respected. I don’t generally recommend the MSL for people who just sort of think that they could do the MSL and then people will sort of roll the red carpet out. I don’t think it’s enough time because it’s one year versus three. And I think that the MSL is really great for specific areas that you want, but not for sort of I sell myself as a third of a lawyer. I have about a third of those great skills because I went to law school for a year. I think you want to be, I think look, many of us go to go to the JD programs, JD programs not being sure what we want to do, and that’s probably you. And it’s probably me. I did practice law for a while, but not for many, many years, I think to, to embark on an MSL, you want to have a much more specific goal in mind. You want to be really, really intentional about what you’re hoping to get out of that in ways that many JD students or not necessarily
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Interesting. Okay. So you mentioned that Fordham has a couple of different specialties for their MSL. So it sounds like other schools might have a different focus, like maybe public policy or things like that.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Yeah, that’s, what’s really interesting. You’ll find, you know, if you, if you were to research MSL programs, you would find a whole range of MSL programs, everything from public policy, as you said, to working for a nonprofit, working in human resources, probably programs on artificial intelligence on data privacy, health care, I think is a big area for MSLs. I think there are so many fields in which sort of law adjacent, which are law, Jason, which touch upon the law. And I think you’ll find an increasing number of those specialties. But you do want to know which one of those you want to do.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
That’s so interesting because when I think back, like you said, I didn’t really have a firm plan. I had a couple of different things. I was interested in one thing I thought, and again, there was no foundation for this whatsoever, but I was really interested in nonprofit work and I just, but I didn’t want to make, you know, 30,000 a year or something. And I thought I could do so much more as a nonprofit attorney and maybe even a CEO of a nonprofit cause they actually, some of them make really good money. So I thought, okay, I’ll be a CEO of a nonprofit again. I have no managerial experience whatsoever. So I don’t know where that came from, but that was the thought. But it sounds like an MSL in nonprofit, in public policy. That’s the way it may be. I could have gone to really get in with less costs, get some experience. And then of course I could always go back to law school if I really felt like I needed that level.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
You know, that that’s a really insightful comment. And I think, look there some number of people who know I want to practice law, they may not really know what that is. And they may not really fully understand what the profession is all about, but for those people, I would say, do your JD for other people who say, I want to do, I want to do, I want to work in a nonprofit. I want to do public policy. I’m going to do human resources. I want to do artificial intelligence. I want to do tech and privacy. I think you have a couple of choices. One is certainly to go to law school, but the traditional JD program will not allow you to focus that much on any of those themes. Right? Yeah. You’ll have some elective courses, particularly in your third year. Whereas most MSL programs will be very, very heavily focused.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
And so you can really, you know, you’ll probably start with some introduction to the us legal system. And then probably if I had to guess most of the rest of your courses in that master program will be focused on exactly what you want to do or what you think you want to do. So it’s tight. It is kind of a shortcut for people who know what they want to do. And practicing law is not a necessary component of that. So that might’ve been something that had really suited you. Although MSL programs are a relatively recent vintage, so you probably didn’t have the chance to do that.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Yeah. That’s the other thing, right? There’s always these things popping up that change over time, so, oh, well,
Speaker 2 (08:18):
It’s so funny that you say that because when I looked Jolene at the opportunities our students have now everything from study abroad to the kinds of externships I almost wish I could go back to law school again, almost,
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Almost so. Okay. So it sounds like, whereas J D students often complained that law school doesn’t teach them anything practical. The MSL is a lot more hands-on practical, is that right?
Speaker 2 (08:44):
That’s right. I think it’s a lot more focused now. You probably still have the same complaint that JD students have, which is okay. I just took a whole class on nonprofit law and I don’t really know that much substance because as you know, so much of law school is premised on not learning substantive knowledge, but learning how to think like a lawyer, knowing how to process those kinds of questions that come up. So it may not be and I want, wanna, I want to add to that with, with an aside in a moment. So it may not be as deeply practical, but it will definitely be more focused. And the aside I wanted to make is that for people who go into an MSL program with, with some sort of background in corporate compliance or fashion law or public policy, those people are going to have a little more experience than most your typical JD student.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I don’t know about you, but I w I was whenever you are, when you go right through college and right into law school. So I guess I was 22 and I didn’t know much about anything. And so I had no context. I think what’s great is if you’re in public policy or running a, not running a nonprofit and you go to an MSL program, like our compliance students are really pretty accomplished in, in compliance already when they come in, they can make even more theoretical legal, LEC lectures, a little bit more practical in their minds because they have the context in which to understand them in a different way than most JD students do. So I think, I think that’s absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
That makes so much sense too, because yes, most JD, I shouldn’t say most, but a lot of JV students are just straight from college. That trend is changing, but yeah, even I just took two years, so that’s not a lot of time there for, you know, actual mastery of any type of job. So I still didn’t really know much of anything. So is there any, it sounds like the answer is going to be no, but is there any crossover between the JD and the MSL, like as far as credit of unit? So if you have that master degree, can you use that towards maybe some electives in your law school or something or their a joint program or anything like that?
Speaker 2 (10:48):
So I don’t know of any joint programs, but I will tell you the, the, the main answer to the question you just asked me is a big fat. No. And the reason is that the American bar association, which many of your listeners may know is the sort of regulatory authority and accrediting authority for law schools in the U S at least in most jurisdictions, California is a little bit different. Of course, the ABA has said programs like credits earned in programs like MSLs will not count towards the JD now what you might be able to do. And I actually think that’s really unfortunate, but I think a lot of what the ABA does is kind of unfortunate for any ABA folks who are listening.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
I do think that’s unfortunate. What, what I, what I don’t know, here’s what I think there were, I think there might be some flexibility. So in our MSL for, in compliance students often take corporations and JD students are also required to take corporations. But that’s a Fordham rule. That’s a law specific rule. So maybe you could get wave from corporations maybe, maybe not, but in general, I mean, this is why I think you should be intentional about whether you want to do the MSL, because if you do decide that you want to go to law school after that, you’re still looking at another three years and that’s, that’s a, that’s a big time commitment and a big financial commitment for most people.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Yeah. And what is the kind of cost difference between an MSL and our MSL and a J D
Speaker 2 (12:15):
I thought you’d asked me that question. And so I looked at a number of schools and it seems to be that MSL programs are about 10% to 15% lower in tuition than the JD. And of course the J D tuition, you have to multiply times three. So it is cheaper. It’s even cheaper just for the one year. And I think that’s probably because I think our theory behind that was, well, you don’t get this qualification to sit for the bar exam in 50 jurisdictions and become licensed to practice law. So there is a price differential. I will say that as with JD programs and LLM programs and pretty much every educational program anywhere right now schools discount. So for any of your listeners who are thinking about doing an MSL or JD, they shouldn’t let the, the sticker shock, scare them, I believe in sort of going for what you want. And if it’s too much, try to work it out with the school, because in my experience, schools really great candidates, we’re going to find a way to get you here. And so try not to freak out when you just see the price tag, that’s the rack rate. And then of course, we work with individual students to try to arrange for discounts.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
All right. So what are the actual qualifications then? I mean, do you have like a GRE or what do you have to do to get into
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Maybe one of the best things about the MSL program? At least in my experience. And again, there might be schools in certain states, certain places that are different, you don’t need the L set. You don’t need the GRE, you need an undergraduate degree in something other than law. So I say that because in many other countries outside the U S and I’m sure you have a global audience the the law degree is is an undergraduate degree. So if you come in with a law degree already, we’re not going to let you do an MSL program, but if you’ve studied, it doesn’t matter. You could have studied physics, you could have studied literature, you could have studied Russian dance and you’d be eligible for the MSL. I think many programs want to see that you have some professional experience for the reason I mentioned before that you can kind of use that practical experience to, to grasp the the MSL experience better.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Okay. Wow. Okay. So is there a full application then, aside from this testing?
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Yeah. It’s just going to be a regular straightforward application where you upload your personal statement, your resume, your letters of recommendation, your transcripts from whatever universities you’ve attended. It’s pretty straightforward. I think not having a standardized admissions test for me, I’m not a good test taker, so that would have been a real appeal to me. I think that’s very, very appealing and it means that can, can sort of get an application completed fairly quickly.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Yeah, it makes sense too, because if it is a practical application, especially kind of geared towards working adults people on a particular career path, I just, I couldn’t see how the L sat or the GRE really fit into it. So
Speaker 2 (15:11):
That’s exactly right, but it’s, it’s not always the case that the logical answer is the one that’s true blended to say that it’s here. Jolene, there’s something that I meant to mention earlier, and I didn’t what you would, what one thing that’s really, really interesting about most MSL programs. That, again, everybody should check if they’re interested with the specific program, but at Fordham, for example, we put our MSL students in most classes with their JD counterpart. And so if you’re taking a corporate compliance risk assessment course here at Fordham, you’ll be with other MSL students, but you’ll also be with JD students and LLM students from around the world. And I think that’s just another form of a culturation. So not only are you learning the stuff, but you’re learning how lawyers think about this stuff and you see how they react to it. And I think for anyone who’s in a business that’s law, Jason, that could be really, really interesting and a great networking opportunity.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
That’s really exciting. I mean, how cool to be with these other people who are yeah. In a different program, probably a program you thought about taking and, you know, decide to do your MSL, but you still have that exposure. And I can see where that overlap would really work on any level, like you said, not just corporations, but yeah. Public policy or the non-profit work how neat and yet to get that crossover networking.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
And I think it’s great for the JD students, if I were a J D students in, in a, whatever, a compliance class, just because we’ve been talking about that. And there was someone who’s actually had experienced in the industry, what a great opportunity to be able to say, Hey, I know you’re not in the law side of this. I would want to be in the law side of this, but tell me what it’s like, and how does it work and how are the departments organized and in your bank, you know, it’s just a great networking opportunity and a great way to learn from someone who has that kind of experience, which is something I think some JD students don’t have as much as others is sort of access to professionals.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Yeah, for sure. We are kind of in our own little bubble and there’s very little crossover it’s. Yeah. And some of us are at law schools that don’t have undergrads, so we’re really in our own little bubble. So that’s great. I love that. All right. So have you seen, I don’t know if you have information on this, but are those students grade it together or are they great at separately?
Speaker 2 (17:36):
That’s a great question. And I can answer that for how we do it here, but I can’t answer it. Other schools my at Fordham, we grade them separately. They’re on a separate curve, which makes the sort of networking even better. Right. Because if you’re a person, you know, you’re in the MSL program, you feel intimidated by the JD students. JD students can be intimidated because intimidating because they know how to walk the walk and talk the talk. They don’t necessarily know much, but they, they do know how to project. And so, like, I was very intimidated. I would be very intimidated still. And so the MSL students, I think usually are, or at least at some schools are graded on a separate curve, which means, you know, if you’re a J D and I’m an MSL, I just go up to you and say, Hey, Jolene you know, I’m an MSL, I’d love to chat with you about your experience. And I’d love to tell you about my work. And it just, I think it takes some of the stress that’s inherent in a competitive environment and it just removed that from the table. And I think it makes it much easier for those cohorts to really get along and develop relationships.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Absolutely. Yeah. I was going to say, as an MSL student, I think I would be very intimidated by the JD students, as excited as I would be to be in the class with them. I’d be worried that especially something like corporations or any of these electives, they are usually second or third year courses for these students. And you’re in a one-year program where, Hey, you’re just still getting by. So
Speaker 2 (19:03):
That’s really a key point that you just made Julian because by definition, I think you’re right. I don’t know if any MSL students anywhere take first year courses, but I don’t think they do because they’re, you know, what first-year course is, or they’re just sort of you know, very foundational and not really driven toward geared towards any thing in particular that you’re actually doing your right, but they are important. They are important, but they don’t have professional relevance in the same way that upper level courses. So by definition, the MSL students are all their, their J D classmates have all had a year of experience and that’s when they learn to walk the walk and talk the talk. And like you said, the MSLs come in and they kind of, you know, they’re in and out before they know it. And so they I think that helps a little bit knowing that they’re graded on a different scale helps remove some of that anxiety.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yeah. I know, I know you’re not on the admissions team for the law school, but do you know how many law school applicants there are students who have already had their MSL? That is
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Great question. I do not know the answer. My guess is it’s a fairly small number. But my guess is also that that number may increase a little bit over time. And so I do a little teaching in the MSL program and I have a number of students that really were jazzed by being in law school and liked it much more than they expected to, and actually are thinking about career changes. So I would just, anecdotally, I would say that that number is fairly small right now, but I think it could grow over time.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Yeah, I think that’s so exciting because some people really, again, like you said, there’s always some negotiations to be had on that sticker price, but law school is so expensive. It’s such a big commitment people, different family and financial issues, and may not be able to really go to law school no matter what really, but that master of legal studies or MSL whichever way they call it.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Right.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Exactly. All the different words. They may be able to afford that they may be able to commit to that and maybe get their legal career, you know, up and running. And then maybe later if they have the time and means go back to law school,
Speaker 2 (21:13):
You know, Juliana, it’s so funny because as you were saying that, I was just thinking of something that I’ve been working on just in the last days, which is thinking about whether it’s a meaningful program for, for law school to have it at boredom or elsewhere. It’s a term that I wasn’t familiar with until recently, and it’s it’s navigator and it’s different states have different rules to allow people to be a navigator in housing court, in family court, in immigration court where you’re not a lawyer, but you have enough knowledge to be able to help sort of a very poor person, a person who doesn’t speak English, a person who doesn’t know how to read, and you can help that person navigate the basics of sort of the system in, in things that affect ordinary people all the time, like housing, family, law, immigration, other matters. And so, you know, it occurred to me. I don’t know if we’ll do it. I don’t know. Maybe someone listens to this and steals the idea, but to do a master for potential navigators, just to give them a sense of how, how the law is structured, how the court systems are structured and how sort of the basic doctrine so that they could be a real service to people in need. So that’s another way in which these MSL programs might evolve over time.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
That would be exciting because one of the things we always complain about is that you don’t really know what being a lawyer is like until you’re at least in law school, you know, then you kind of get a taste for it through your internships. But, you know, even if you do an internship in undergrad, they still just have you doing kind of secretarial work, not legal work. You don’t really get to see what the lawyers do. And so it’s kind of a bummer because you’re spending all this money to find out I don’t like this, you know, a
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Lot of time. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Yeah. Whereas with the MSL, if you were doing it so that you could be almost like a mini lawyer and then just, if you were really like, I’m just not sure this is going to be for me, that’s another way you could test those waters, have a career for a few years and then maybe move on to law if that’s what you want it to do or just leave. Cause you aren’t quite as in debt as you would be with law school. But certainly I know in California we have people who do that. I spent a lot of time in workers’ comp and we have non attorneys doing everything that attorneys do, which, you know, on the one hand, it’s very frustrating on the one hand, you know, I spent all this time and money and you know, the guy next door is doing the same thing I do without a degree. But on the other hand, I will fully admit that some of those hearing reps are 10 times smarter than some of the attorneys I work with. So, you know, it’s like who’s to say who’s qualified to represent people. I would much rather have that non attorney representing me than that other attorney that I know, you know, and
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Yeah, that’s, that’s so interesting. And I think, you know, when we talk about access to justice and also access to professions, I think this is something that is so much less rigid than it was 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago. And you know, it started, I think with like Jacoby and Meyers who had this kind of template, right? You want to no fault divorce here, you fill out this, you need a worker’s comp. And these things, of course it become big business. And a lot of my work in on professionalism, I’ve been taking a really hard look at the profession and looking at changes in the profession. And there was so much unbundling, there are so many alternative service providers. There’s so much more competition and competition of course is scary. On the one hand, if you’re sort of a traditional law firm, competition is really scary, but you know, for your audience who were people who were thinking about law school, there are so many ways they can get involved in the legal world and the legal profession either as a formerly admitted lawyer, but in other ways like the navigator.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
And it’s interesting that your experience has been, that some of them are so incredibly talented that you’d prefer them for your own self or someone in your family, then you would some of the lawyers, you know and that just, I really think it was the show. You and I, I think, you know, we’re all talking about wellbeing and lifestyle choices and you know, it could be that some of these alternate careers really lead to, you know, sort of just better balanced lifestyles. And I think there’s so much for young young people by which I mean, people who are thinking about their careers now, even if you’re thinking about a change in career, by which you can just sort of write your own ticket and think about something new and innovative and an MSL may be the way to get you from here to there rather than the three-year JD, which is, as you said, very expensive, very time consuming. And you know, we all talk about the, the handcuffs, right, that, that you’re in, many of us are in after law school just really sort of forces you into big law, which isn’t a bad thing if you want to be there, but for many people that’s not the right fit. But you need to spend six or seven years there to pay off your debt.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Yeah, for sure. I, that’s something I talk about a lot, which is just try to preempt as much of that debt as possible. Save up that money because when you are drowning in debt, that low paying job that you were dreaming of is no longer available, you cannot afford it. So, oh my gosh. I’m so excited about this program. I’m so excited to share it with the audience, because really, like I said, I think there’s so many people who are just going for that JD. They don’t really know what they’re doing and yet if they knew about this program and now hopefully they know about this program they can research it and see if that is actually more on task for them then law school. And again, law school is always going to be there. It’s always there. It’s always been there. It’ll always be there. Don’t worry people, but good. So Tony, I would love to hear more about your book before we wrap up. So what is the name of your book?
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Oh, thank you. I, I didn’t expect that, but I’m always happy to talk about my book. My book is called becoming a lawyer discovering and defining your professional persona. And I have to say that I wished I’d titled it. I wish I left the becoming a lawyer out of it because I think it’s great for everyone, whether you become a lawyer or not. And it basically looks at a set of attitudes and behaviors that really define our success. And for your listeners who do go to law school, what you’ll see is law schools do a great job of teaching you how to think like a lawyer. They do a great job of teaching you substantive knowledge. They do a great job of teaching you substance technical skills. They don’t do a great job of teaching you sort of how to refine your attitudes and behaviors in a way that make you a really valuable professional.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
So that’s what I try to unpack in the book. I love talking about it. And the reason I love talking about is because I learned so much from people that I talk to about their own experiences, their own challenges, their own sort of stories behind their success. So thank you for letting me plug that. And it’s just it’s just a joy to, you know, after maybe 30 years teaching law to now teach, I still teach law, but to think about the other part of it, the missing part. And I really wrote the book because I saw so many law students who, and others who sort of trip over their own feet by, by not engaging in these professional attitudes and behaviors. And so it’s been really fun to try to sort of work with with attorneys of all ages and try to get them to be more, more intentional and deliberate about how they behave.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
That sounds so great. I can honestly vouch for that for sure. In the industry I worked in, it was very casual, which was great. A lot of the times, you know, we all kind of, Hey, I’m kinda missed a deadline. Can you forgive me? Sure. It was, it was great that way, but when people would show up half an hour late for trial, I would get a little annoyed, you know, it’s trial. Can you please try to be on time? And it just, sometimes the level of unprofessionalism really got to me. And I can say though, that I was always having unsolicited job offers from firms. And I think a lot of that was because I showed up in a suit and I, you know, looked ironed, right. My clothes were in good shape on
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Time. And you were prepared. Yes,
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Exactly. I had everything, you know, I was always, yes, your honor, and all the good stuff. And so, and even if I was harassing my opposing counsel, why are you late? It was always on this professional level of, I was here. I was ready. Let’s go, you know, which is something that they would want to hire, even if they’re not actually doing it.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Yep. No, it’s, it’s interesting that that’s been your experience that just these small gestures of professionalism really made a difference for you. And you know, when you saw that by getting job offers and that’s really amazing, what I’ve been working on for myself is, is my own mindset. I think when I wrote the book, I thought it was going to be very, very easy because I thought I’ve got all this down. I just have to tell everybody. And I realized that my mindset was holding me back in certain ways and I’ve actually trained myself to be more growth, oriented, more positive, more optimistic, more resilient. While I was writing the book, I was 57 years old and I joined a CrossFit gym. And I don’t know if you could tell this, but I am not big and strong. And I did this to sort of teach myself resilience and get out of my comfort zone and really you know, what that does for you, by the way, is it builds a reservoir of memories of I can do that. Right. I did that crazy thing with the sand bag over my head and spotting. And I didn’t think I could do that. And nothing really phases me when something comes up. I know I can do it. And I have a huge amount of self-confidence that comes from putting myself out there and going outside my comfort zone.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
I love that. Okay. So where can we get this book
Speaker 2 (31:02):
So you could get it on Amazon. You can also get it from west academic.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Beautiful. Okay. I’ll be sure to link that all up in the show notes, Tony, thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate your time.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Jolene. It’s such a pleasure and I’m glad we finally had a chance to meet and thanks to all of your listeners
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Before we get into my top takeaways, a quick word from our sponsor. Juno, if you need to take out student loans, check in with Juno first, do you know, can often offer law students one to 2% lower interest rates than the federal government and with no origination fees and oftentimes cash back as well. Visit advisor.legal learning center.com forward slash Juno. For more information, my top takeaways from this chat with Tony. Number one, if you want to work in a legal adjacent field and MLS or MSL may be a better fit. Number two, a master’s is cheaper, faster and more focused. Number three, don’t forget to check out her book, becoming a lawyer. I’ve linked it all up in the show notes. So as always a full transcript is available@legallearningcenter.com slash Tony that’s T O N I and the show notes will be there with all the links as well as always. If you learned something today, if you liked the show, please go and leave a comment, a review that just helps the show help more people. Thank you.
